Saturday, July 02, 2005

Missing Recon Team

The incident involving a four man recon team which has gone missing near Asadabad, Afghanistan, raises some really interesting questions which can only be addressed by speculation until the full details become available. The small size of the team suggests it was designed for concealment and stealth. Its insertion represented an extraordinary risk since they would be operating in an area known to be a stronghold of the Taliban, where any contact with the enemy automatically meant it would be grossly overmatched. The team lost the bet when they had to request an extraction, presumably after being discovered. An MH-47 carrying a quick reaction force was shot down in the effort, resulting in the death of 16 Special Forces soldiers. The Taliban claims that one US soldier has been captured. Hundreds of US troops have been inserted into the area, ostensibly to recover the missing reconnaissance team.

It is reasonable to infer that the recon team was looking for some very high value targets in the enemy's own backyard. A glance at the map of Asadabad, Afghanistan shows it to be in a high valley near four borders: Kyrgistan, China, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The team had probably hoped to remain undetected until the object of their reconnaissance was attained, a hope that was soon dashed. The fact that one MH-47 was carrying 16 men (there were probably others in company because attempts were made to secure the stricken MH-47 after it was downed) implies that either the recon team was was so closely engaged that it required ground reinforcement for extraction or that it had located its object and was calling in the strike force.

Because several hundred US troops were inserted into the area after the loss of the MH-47 it seems evident that the US could obtain local tactical superiority anytime it wished. The fact that did it not send in the several hundred troops for a sweep instead of the four man recon team strongly suggests that the recon team's mission was to fix a very high value target before it could flee from an airmobile assault.

We are looking at a very high stakes game at which the enemy is presently leading. Can the US recover? When unlucky at roulette but with reserves of capital it sometimes helps to double the bet. The US has raised the stakes by sending in large numbers of men and following through with the action. A recent report says:

"U.S. fighter planes bombed a suspected Taliban compound in mountains in eastern Afghanistan in an area where an elite American military team has been missing for five days, a U.S. military spokesman said Saturday. It was not clear if there were any casualties."

Striking at a solitary compound in the heights of the Hindu Kush means solid intel. So my guess (speculation alert) is that the missing team was not the only reconnaissance unit in the area. The unanswered questions are:

  • what is the real objective of the operation to which the missing recon team was in support?
  • are current efforts aimed at recovering the missing team or at achieving the original aim of the operation?


Blogger Carl O. Witz said...

I shudder to wonder how the captured American will be treated, compared to, say, the prisoners at Gitmo.

7/02/2005 06:42:00 AM  
Blogger Pierre said...

Your hypothosis makes a great deal of sense. It brings to mind President Bush's speech of September 20, 2001. This war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

Where do we find such men who are willing to go into the lions den to defend us? How does one thank such people? Words are so hollow and trite in the face of such awesome sacrifice.

We must not forget their families and I urge everyone who can to donate to whatever charity you can find and think is worthy.

In addition please take the time to thank anyone you see in uniform. It seems theatrical but it means so much to them. You will thank me for making the recommendation if you have the same experience I had once in a grocery store. I thanked a Marine officer who was shopping with his son. The fact that a stranger with his 3 children walked up to his father extended his hand and offered a hearfelt thanks stunned the boy of about 7. I looked at the boy and in as soft a voice as possible told him how brave his father was. He looked up at his father and you could see he was even more impressed than ever. I didn't realize nor did I intend to gain anything by offering my gratitude but that moment still shines. They deserve our thanks...each and every moment of the day.


7/02/2005 06:57:00 AM  
Blogger al fin said...

The US military is playing a much more intense and deeper level game plan than the media gives credit for. I suspect the journalists comprising the media are incapable of understanding what is happening in the GWOT, because certainly the media presentation have all the depth of Saturday morning cartoons.

I have met and gotten to know many of the men who go into such teams. They are intelligent and intensely dedicated. Their strength of focus is striking. They live hard and no doubt they will die hard. They make us proud.

7/02/2005 07:32:00 AM  
Blogger TBD said...

I can only imagine what those young men are going through. All the while, Teddy and Vicky cruise the sunny waters of Nantucket Sound, sipping their gin and tonics.

7/02/2005 07:47:00 AM  
Blogger 49erDweet said...

Yes. It's time for prayers and watchful waiting.

And surrounded said something that needs expanding. The Teddys and Vickies of this world, and their twisted off-spring, do their best to undercut, underplay and interfere with the safety and security of our forces and our citizens.

Ah, the "Beautiful People". They are able to live well in their ignorance and arrogance only because of the sacrificial dedication of warriors like these.

Most of us are humbled. The "BP" claim it as their right!

7/02/2005 08:06:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

I wondered that, too, Wretchard--what did the airstrike hit, that couldn't have been hit before--or without the recon team(s) going in? Why not, just the airstrikes?

7/02/2005 08:19:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

The team could have gone in to light the target.

7/02/2005 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger raymondshaw said...

Maybe sent in to collect the DNA sample?

My knowledge of the BP must be lacking. Who is Vicky?

7/02/2005 08:38:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

True...likely, even. First mental image is a remote compound makes a defined target already, but, the reality is never as neat and clean.

7/02/2005 08:39:00 AM  
Blogger Dave said...

The Army published a good retrospective on the "major combat" phase of the liberation of Iraq, called "On Point," available online from the Army's Center for Military History.

One of their conclusions is that long-range recon teams were not nearly as useful as hoped for, and it sometimes took huge efforts to recover a team when they were compromised.

These issues aren't simple. I assume the military will continue to review and refine their tactics to learn from our experiences.

7/02/2005 09:00:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Dave, it would appear that a helo is in a bad situation, going in to extract a team under attack; enemy knows the helos are coming, where they are going precisely, and that they have to land, in an areas where AA weapons can look down from hiding. I know, dumb, pointless blather...but still.

Here's some background from yesterday.

7/02/2005 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger Dave said...

You make good points.

Sometimes there's no substitute for "eyes on the target" despite the large risks -- like Wretchard said, it's a high-stakes business.

7/02/2005 09:25:00 AM  
Blogger sammy small said...

Buddy, I agree there must be a better way. Remember when Scott O'Grady was rescued by a CH-53 that there were two Cobra gunships escourting for fire suppression. Like the 53, the MH-47 is not very manuverable (especially at 10,000 ft. altitude) and it presents a very large target. I doubt that even the Whiskey or Zulu Cobra could do the job at that altitude, but we sure could use fighters in a CAS mode to help with the extraction.

7/02/2005 09:29:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

That's so true, helos get hard to control at that altitude--what a nasty set of difficulties.

7/02/2005 09:35:00 AM  
Blogger TBD said...

"Vicky" is Victoria Reggie, the Amphib Senior Senator from Massachusetts wife.

A young man I know was sky capping at a local airport and Teddy and Vicky came in with no less than 11 bags. No tip was forthcoming.

7/02/2005 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Your friend is lucky--from any other family, Teddy would've been following him around the airport panhandling for a bottle of Ripple.

7/02/2005 09:49:00 AM  
Blogger Steven Den Beste said...

I wonder if they were after bin Laden?

7/02/2005 10:43:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

I think Wretchard is wondering the same.

7/02/2005 10:48:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Such a prize offers the enemy a great ambush set-up. Pick a spot, then leak a little, and wait.

7/02/2005 10:50:00 AM  
Blogger Dave said...

"Pick a spot, then leak a little, and wait."

Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing.

7/02/2005 11:14:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Cops having to respond to trouble, if Al Capone had wanted to just kill cops, he could've run up a score.

7/02/2005 11:24:00 AM  
Blogger husker_met said...

Did anyone hear what took down the helicopter? I saw one report, early on that some sort of "advanced weapon" but they didn't ID it in the report. Since then nothing.

Also, what happened to the original team that called in for support? News reports say "looking for sixteen", so where is the original team?

At any rate, there's obviously something important afoot up in the hills of Afghanistan.

Slightly OT, what's going on with "Operation Sword"? Again, reports came out that it was underway, then nothing.

7/02/2005 11:35:00 AM  
Blogger Dave said...

"Did anyone hear what took down the helicopter?"

I'm afraid we'll have to wait awhile for good info. As the saying goes, first reports from the battlefield are always wrong.

7/02/2005 11:40:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

husker, the original team is still missing, tho there are signal clues they may be on the move. This site is worth checking in on:

7/02/2005 11:43:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

The "new-type weapon" words came from a Taliban/AQ spokesman; a following helo reported small-arms and RPG fire being directed at the lost Chinook.

7/02/2005 11:45:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

No helo is very good up at that altitude, but what other option is there? I read somewhere (perhaps on Belmont) that they can adjust the timing on the RPGs to be more effective against helos. I assume that that would mean that they explode on impact, rather than delaying like they (again, I'm assuming} they would when shot against an armored target, where they want it to penetrate prior to exploding.

7/02/2005 11:57:00 AM  
Blogger Chap said...

News reports (US ABC Radio) have mentioned the downed helo had other helos in the sortie, and that the best guess is lucky hit from RPG.

7/02/2005 12:02:00 PM  
Blogger ex-democrat said...

i try not to use this space for personal therapy, but how about pulling all our guys out and leveling the goddammed mountain with a tactical nuke??
ok, i'm sure that's a terrible idea, but i just really needed to say it out loud.

7/02/2005 12:05:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Me, too, ex, I was thinking, box canyon, enemy compound = B-52, Daisy Cutter. But, we just have those thoughts because we don't know the actual situation.

7/02/2005 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

During the Vietnam War it became common to send small recon teams, 3 - 6 men, into Cambodia to scout the location of enemy formations. They were at first inserted by helicopter, and the problem there that everyone could see and hear a chopper coming for miles around. Since it was Cambodia where none were supposed to be, it became very obvious what they were doing. The teams were usually discovered right after they hit the ground and rather than recon they were in a running gunbattle the whole time, extraction being a rather frantic exercise. The answer they came up with was delivering the teams not by copter but by parachuting them out of an OV-10A, which could pass the dangerous border areas at altitude faster and less obviously. I read one account where an OV-10 pilot went to cover an extraction by helicopter, and things were so hot for the team that he landed on a road and picked them up himself. Talk about guts!
I suspect that sending in similar small teams is a normal mode of operation in Afghanistan. I wonder how they are inserted?
In any case the fact that they ran into trouble indicates to me that they hit paydirt.

7/02/2005 12:17:00 PM  
Blogger Dave said...

Chap, correct me if I'm wrong, but U.S. military aircraft never operate alone in a tacticcal situation. So we'd always expect at least one other aircraft to be nearby, I think.

7/02/2005 12:17:00 PM  
Blogger ex-democrat said...

just hate to see any of our heroes lost, bud.
pierre, thanks for that quote - i think of it often: especially the phrase about doing covert operations that are "secret even in success."
When GW said that, right after 9/11, everyone knew exactly what it meant in an otherwise transparent and open society like ours. and there was no complaint.
yet, soon enough, when push actually came to shove, people started coming out of the woodwork, whining that 'we have a right to know what's being done in our name;' that the president 'needs to level with us' and 'tell us exactly what his plans are' etc etc. Aand always, naturally, in a tone of self-righteous indignation and self-congratulation at the courage of 'talking truth to power.'
meanwhile, on a mountain far away, four freedom-fighters stare down the devil.

7/02/2005 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger foxenburg said...

you can speculate until the cows come home about what the four man stick was doing in the mountains. most likely an observation post (OP). lying there on their stomachs for maybe fourteen days. just keeping their eyes peeled. the very stuff of counter insurgency. always hoping you strike it lucky and spot something. but ninety nine times out of a hundred just counting sheep, or whatever. in the hindu kush or wherever it was probably not even sheep to count. no twitching allowed. hardly whispering. not moving more than few inches to roll over and attend to nature. and even then with extreme caution. day in day out. very skilled work. and you're in big trouble if you've been spotted and almost certainly don't know you've been spotted. people creeping up on you in the dark. you have to stay very much on your toes, even in all this activity. brave men. infantry, of course.

7/02/2005 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger metaphysician said...

al fin-

Hey, don't insult Saturday morning cartoons. Alot of them have far more moral maturity and wisdom than the likes of Teddy. . . like how the good guys can manage to fight the bad guys without angsting over why they hate us. ;-)

7/02/2005 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger Brian H said...

al fin;
Jason at made a point some time ago of pointing out how few journalists had any military background whatsoever -- partly a self-selection phenomenon, and partly due to unwillingness of the MSM to hire anyone with such a non-urbanliberal background. The result is an unending stream of errors in use of military terminology and very shallow comprehension of strategy, tactics, and capabilities. The results are there for all to see, daily.

7/02/2005 01:10:00 PM  
Blogger Dave said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/02/2005 01:27:00 PM  
Blogger Dave said...

Brian - yeah, and did you see that last week the NY Times said they may need more people with a military background? They're starting to realize they've been outflanked -- decades too late.

7/02/2005 01:29:00 PM  
Blogger Pierre said...

What struck me today given the tragedy unfolding in Afghanistan was the sheer bloody obnoxious insults that fell upon these men because of the splash damage of the liberals attempts to damage the Bush Administration.

I know that to be considered a traitor is difficult in todays world but by god exactly what is a traitor than one who shits upon ones soldiers while they are in battle?

Old school but there it is.


7/02/2005 01:39:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

HT to
Something on Sword someone was asking for.

7/02/2005 02:13:00 PM  
Blogger Dave said...

"i think of it often: especially the phrase about doing covert operations that are 'secret even in success.'"

You raise a great point -- I wonder if anyone else would like to comment on this.

Our SpecOps guys take pride in not communicating with the public. They cultivate the "quiet professional" image.

But in this war, I'm not sure secrecy is all good. If the public could learn a little more about these guys and what they do, they'd be amazed and impressed. It would be the best antidote to the propaganda from our enemies. It's the way to fight and win the information war, even though it's a dangerous strategy if it's not done very well.

7/02/2005 02:54:00 PM  
Blogger Quartz said...

With regard to parachuting, they'd have to do it at night, and parachuting onto rocky terrain at night doesn't sound like a good survival strategy to me - too much chance of sprained ankles and broken bones.

7/02/2005 02:55:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

A Victor Davis Hanson just out, worth reading.

7/02/2005 03:09:00 PM  
Blogger husker_met said...

Thanks Buddy. Little bits and pieces are trickling in now.


Quagmire: Kosovo

7/02/2005 03:11:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Wasn't bin Laden in Iran last week? For someone with kidney failure and an enormous price on his head, he sure does get around a lot.

7/02/2005 03:12:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

There is a report that the missile used to down the Chinnok was a Russian Gimlet

7/02/2005 03:14:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Nahncee, the AQ hangouts in those Iranian Caspian areas I believe without mapping it are only a few hundred miles from the hot canyon. This post will prob embarrass me. Just, posting dangerously here ;-)

7/02/2005 03:25:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

While parachuting into Afghanistan has got to be more difficult that, say, Cambodia, at least today we have GPS, which can improve the situation enormously.
With the great emphasis being placed on robotics to aid special ops and infantry, I wonder how much longer it will be before we start using some of that technology to aid such operations. Or how much longer it will be before some terrorist group annonces that it has captured an American Spy Robot and is interrogating it ruthlessly.

7/02/2005 03:30:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Peter...the AQ spokeman said "new-type weapon"...wonder if a Gimlet would be "new". Friggin' Russians and their "need for hard cash".

7/02/2005 03:32:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Here's some family pictures,nasty looking bunch,like the Kennedy clan.
this one is the Teddy

7/02/2005 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Bad stuff, alright. They got an Apache about a week ago, didn't they, not far north of Baghdad?

7/02/2005 03:55:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Why are these Sp Ops not dropped off a distance away and make their way to where needed on foot? 35 km distance is not unreasonable, and can easily be covered in a day's walk. These are strong fit men. They should be able to manage. :/

7/02/2005 04:09:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Were we not dealing with the Pentagon, Congress, and DC in general, I'll bet if Burt Rutan were given 500 million or so, he could develope one hell of an extraction vehicle that would almost never be shot down by an RPG.
Before the F-22 flys one combat mission.

7/02/2005 04:18:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hadn't read your post yet bud:
What's a gimlet?

7/02/2005 04:19:00 PM  
Blogger Mark Buehner said...

35 clicks is considerably longer than a days walk in those mountains.

Also an observation team is virtually indistinguishable from a special forces sniper team. Just a thought.

7/02/2005 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

gotcha, peter

7/02/2005 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

So why not use what the locals use for transport?

7/02/2005 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

made with Vodka, Doug. Yes, linear distance in mountains is a different walking distance than flatlands fer sher.

7/02/2005 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

dave, you fool:
Don't you keep up with the news?
Nancy Pelosi announced 4 days ago that the war in Afghanistan has been over for some time.
...thus the need to release all those poor gitmo detainees NOW.

7/02/2005 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

If it goes up and down and has big rocks also, much tougher than mere up and down.
Then if some of those rocks have some kind of cover...
I just did that with a hill that looked like an easy brush covered rise.
But beneath the brush were large lava outcrops.
...too old.
Remember wretch's description of the Japanese General's position.
Always works to the advantage of one side or the other.

7/02/2005 04:37:00 PM  
Blogger tm said...

Way to give the Taliban a head's up on our operations. Hey, why don't you go ahead and email blueprints of our nuclear plans to al-Qaeda already?

7/02/2005 04:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/02/2005 04:45:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Doug, any reason others can't be as sneaky?

7/02/2005 04:55:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Right--what's too old, the lava, or the lava-climber? Anyhoo--per Wretchard, per his Arroyo posts, catch this concluding paragraph.

7/02/2005 04:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Great post, Pierre.
One of Hugh's guests also suggests standing outside the gates at quitting time with signs of thanks.
Also can see the appreciation as they drive by he says.
He's a CA representative but I forgot is name.
Anecdote about about Marine's 7 year old son is priceless.

7/02/2005 05:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

As sneaky as Nan Pelosi?
She is a smart one, all right.

7/02/2005 05:03:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah, you laugh at the first 2 words in the article, worry greatly at final paragraph.
If only they had got onboard after 9-11.
But they ain't us.
(we know so well thanks to W's posts)

7/02/2005 05:07:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Does she speak the language of love?

7/02/2005 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Peace, love, and impeach Bushitler.

7/02/2005 05:17:00 PM  
Blogger Jake said...

Is there any evidence of the Aussie military making a covert movement in SE Asia? I work for a military sub-contractor and we were under intense pressure to deliver product by late June.

7/02/2005 05:17:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Doug, read the latest from Liberal Larry?

7/02/2005 05:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The taliban "spokesman" also said that they videotaped the helo being struck by the rocket and its subsequent crash. Even if that is true, I don't see that video tape making it very far from where it was filmed. There are something like 1000+ Marines in the area and I'm confident that those Devil Dogs won't be letting anything out of that province alive.

7/02/2005 05:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Not yet. What was the sneaky question?

7/02/2005 05:52:00 PM  
Blogger Dave said...

super 6, Why would you ask such a question?

7/02/2005 05:54:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Maybe a bonus/penalty clause in the contract. That's how i'd leave it, anyway.

7/02/2005 06:05:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

God bless our troops, now and at the hour of calling.


Thank you for pointing out the repulsive positioning of this heroic mission by the media. America is blessed by God to have such souls who walk into harm's way for the greater good.

The last time the pop media were able to lose a war for us by poisoning the popular opinion, they mocked "body counts." Now our noble losses are their infernal drumbeat. The media meticulously count every death, while they ignore every victory.


7/02/2005 06:06:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Desert Rat:
from Bud's Australian Link:

"While the West is understandably focused on Islamist terror, especially groups such as the Abu Sayyaf, arising out of the rebellious Mindanao province in the south, the communist movement is undergoing a rebirth. Philippines analysts report, dismayingly, that whereas the NPA was formerly a middle-class movement of educated urban radicals, it is now recruiting significant numbers of impoverished peasants.

While the communist movement is geographically dispersed, it is strongest north of Manila, in central and northern Luzon. Unlike Islamist terrorism, it has something to say to the bulk of the Philippines population that is not Muslim."

7/02/2005 06:07:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Doug, it was something you said regards the French.

7/02/2005 06:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

SEAL Dan Healy and Daughter Jasmine .
"Jasmine always knew where he was. She would turn on the 6 o'clock news at night to see if she could see her daddy on TV."

Even those who didn't know the victims personally seemed touched by the tragedy.
"You'll will forever be in my heart and prayers," Kim Klopotek, the wife of a Navy man in Honolulu, wrote to an Advertiser on-line tribute column.
"I have so much pride in all that the services do for us as Americans. May we always remember our heroes, past and present."
. 6 SEALs identified in crash of copter

7/02/2005 06:23:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah, I decided the subject deserved something less lightweight than those folks.

Good to know Abbas is getting Hamas into the govt. though.:(

7/02/2005 06:26:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

More information,the target seems to have been bombed with precision weapons. via The Command post
Obviously a high value target.

7/02/2005 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...

Mika Said:

"Why are these Sp Ops not dropped off a distance away and make their way to where needed on foot? 35 km.."

Heh. Never been in the mountains?

1. 35 km can span several major ridgelines that may or may not be passable. So 35 km becomes 100Km with 7km of altitude change.

2. There are no trees and little water - no concealment. And it gets cold at night and the air is very dry.

3. Sound and movement can be seen and heard at very long distances.

4. Excellent hiding spots are everywhere.

7/02/2005 06:34:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...

Some photos of the terrain:

Got to bottom of this one:

7/02/2005 06:35:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Little is publicly known about the team of 45 officers and 230 enlisted personal — including 93 of the Sea, Air, Land commandos — who quietly conduct special operations in the Pacific and Central Command areas.

Four days after the helicopter crash, details about the aborted rescue mission remained murky.
But military officials said there was guarded optimism that some or all four members of the missing SEALs, from a unit based in Virginia, could be alive.

Radio transmissions had given U.S. forces more hope than they had had the previous day that the missing SEALs had survived, a Pentagon official told the Army Times yesterday.
U.S. military officials dismissed a report by a purported Taliban spokesman that one of the men had been captured.

O'Hara said "all available assets" were being used to find the men, but that the search had been hampered by the steep, forested terrain and the possibility that "at any turn the search can turn into a fire fight if we encounter enemy forces."

7/02/2005 06:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Red River,
Mika checks out tunnels when he wants excitement.

7/02/2005 06:38:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Something has to be done about the Iran Bomb. Once that is done, Hamas might be more reasonable. Does this make any sense?

7/02/2005 06:39:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...


Your timing is off a wee bit.

The Mirror has scooped you.

"SAS troops were last night poised to storm into Afghanistan and capture Osama bin Laden."

7/02/2005 06:43:00 PM  
Blogger Paul A. Gaddis said...

Such brave men.

7/02/2005 06:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

The Peace Process is a very special circumstance, Bud.
You and I may never understand.
(except that all terrorists are not created equal, I guess.)

7/02/2005 06:45:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...


I hate tunnels. Almost drowned in one near Santa Cruz after a thunderstorm. Been all over the Sierras though - they are a lot like Afghanistan I am told.

Here is some more no-go terrain in Afghanistan.


7/02/2005 06:51:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...

Cut and paste. I tried.

7/02/2005 06:53:00 PM  
Blogger Jake said...

Dave said...
super 6, Why would you ask such a question?

Don't want to take the thread off topic. Just a thought after reading the article a couple posts bove my question.

7/02/2005 06:55:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Red River, think "root tunnels". ;)

7/02/2005 06:56:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Not with the Pakis having done that nice Khan job on us,

7/02/2005 06:57:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Those girls don't live in Santa Cruz.

7/02/2005 06:58:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I thought maybe you checked out the ones on Egyptian Border.

7/02/2005 07:00:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

and there's little chance the Iranians are not as capable in that game as the Pakis.

7/02/2005 07:00:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

Pete U.K.: PGMs are more common than not, nowadays. One thing I have not heard explained is what percentage of the bombs are GPS guided and what percentage are laser guided. I guess that the older TV guided stuff is all but gone now, although a combination of GPS guidance to get a missile to a target and TV guidance to put it right through the hole in the wall the previous strike made was quite successful in Desert Storm.
Pierre: Very decent thing to do, thanking that Marine. I recall once in 1991 I was going though National Airport enroute from the Pentagon to Florida and a woman came up to me and said "Are you just back from the Persian Gulf?" I had to rather sheepishly admit that I was on my way to Cape Canaveral. She said "Good to see you here, anyway." It can be a bit embarassing, but is a long, long way up from those people in fake Vietnamese outfits trying to splatter me with red paint back in 1972.

7/02/2005 07:07:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Mika finishes up.

7/02/2005 07:11:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

The "irony-free" people, exersizing the freedom you were fighting to give them, against you, by way of "thanks". I wish them fantastic arrays of old-age diseases.

7/02/2005 07:18:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Doug, guy's gonna PAY to have that done?

7/02/2005 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Yes,I know,my point was that this is connected to the missing stick of special forces,the downed Chinook,the fact that a larger force was sent in and the subsequent bommbing of the target.
Plus the report that the SAS were to be sent in in force,they usually operate in small sticks,to capture Bin Laden.
All this,some twenty casualties up to now,would seem to confirm Wretchard's conjecture that something big is in the offing.
A remote valley, a village with a goat economy with anti-aircraft missiles,at least two big helos one at least carrying SEALS,ground troops and aircover.Selective targeting of one house,two strkes were reported.
The whole operation was very precision.
At a guess,a recon team went in to pinpoint the target for the sixteen man snatch squad,the recon team was intercepted and whoever was in the village was expecting company.The Chinook was downed,ground troops were sent in to pull survivors out.
It was decided that a snatch was then impossible and a decision was made to destroy the target from the air.
Only a surmise.

7/02/2005 07:49:00 PM  
Blogger Red River said...


Good guess.

But, there is more to this. This is about Anaconda, btw.

"They carried high-tech weapons, and appeared to be guarding a white-robed older man with a cane as they fled the battlefield."

7/02/2005 08:18:00 PM  
Blogger Pierre said...

Well it will be a while before any of these heros gets to sit with Leno and talk about the war. See it is just not in the interest of those who control TV and Movies to show us hero's. Else we would be hearing about Brian Chontosh or Brad Kasal instead of hearing about Lyndi England...we would be seeing movies about 9/11 and Flt 93 instead of Farenheit 9/11.

We are in the midst of the worst sort of behavior and we all sit around with dumb looks on our faces like we deserve this crap.

Pierre Legrand

7/02/2005 08:24:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Pierre, I don't know what i'd do without the net.

7/02/2005 08:30:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"In Other Words"
• The Oval: Bush’s 9/11-Iraq Strategy Has Risks .
After thanking the troops at Fort Bragg, N.C., on Tuesday night, the first two lines of his speech were blindingly simple.
“The troops here and across the world are fighting a global war on terror,” he said. “The war reached our shores on September the 11th, 2001.”

In other words: forget about the Downing Street memos and Colin Powell’s now discredited speech at the United Nations. This is one war, against one enemy, making Iraq simply a continuation of the hunt for Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. Or, as Bush put it,
“Iraq is the latest battlefield in this war.”
He might as well have stood in front of a picture of the Twin Towers.

In Other Words Indeed!

Gives a whole new meaning to "Don't put words in my mouth."

7/02/2005 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

Do we think Russia has been selling them weapons recently? Within, say, the last 6 months? Or are these left over from some previous incarnation, like, when they had training camps in Afghanistan before we kicked in their anthill?

Do we think Russia is selling them their toys or they are coming through Syria/Libya/Egypt (Chechnya?) from Russian sources? I can't believe Dubya wouldn't have a stern word with Putin if newly-purchased Russian toys are shooting down American helicopters right now.

7/02/2005 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

You're either with us or against us.

7/02/2005 08:40:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

But rwe or someone said they are everywhere.
In numbers.

7/02/2005 08:41:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

It's an illusion bred by focusing on the news. Right?

7/02/2005 08:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Maybe Newsweak knows it's all fake like the moon landing?

7/02/2005 08:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Troops around the world are fighting in mock battles.
...It's just that some of them, and lots of the enemy, die.

7/02/2005 08:59:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

If the generals are right, 16-20k in Iraq--how many in Afghanistan--and elsewhere--world total 50k? Money screws are tightening. Over in 3 to 5 yrs, would be the way to bet, wouldn't you think?

7/02/2005 09:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Except in Afghanistan, where Peace was declared by
Senator Pelosi, D California.

7/02/2005 09:45:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

They're out there all the time, it just isn't news. Not of the regular variety, anyway. I have more faith in that forgotten, quiet war than I do in its noisy bastard cousin in Iraq, though the former is not without its assigned faults - and none are, are they?

Here's to safe hiding.

7/02/2005 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Newsweek Dreams and Delusions:
Just as the unveiling of Deep Throat brought forth echoes of the Vietnam Era, so does the bleak news about Iraq.
The rhetorical parallels are becoming eerie, even suffocating.
The White House issues upbeat assessments deemed absurd by critics; senators return from “fact-finding” tours full of glum and frightening tales.
The president declares that we can’t “cut and run” —not so subtly implying that anyone who suggests withdrawal is a traitorous weakling. (more "in other words" not subtle, btw)

And the Democrats, facing a Republican president they regard as “imperial” (the word they used for Richard Nixon) grow increasingly hysterical.
Howard Dean is unbound and Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton—who began her political career as a staffer on an impeachment committee in 1974—claims that “there has never been an administration… more intent upon consolidation and abusing power to further its own agenda.” Al Franken, talk show host and likely Democratic Senate candidate, suggests that Bush should be impeached.
Even Sen. John Kerry is said to be considering the possibility.
. Was It Worth It?

7/02/2005 11:06:00 PM  
Blogger trish said...

God forbid that things might actually not be going swimmingly in Iraq, Doug. If we had only Republicans to go on fact-finding (or "fact-finding") missions to the Green Zone and sundry outposts - and Republican journalists to do the weekly write-ups - would we be more reassured?

7/02/2005 11:59:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Al Franken and John Kerry are right:
It's Vietnam all over again, a QUAGMIRE.
Bring the boys home w/ a TIMETABLE.
(Screw the Allies like the Democrats did in Vietnam - again.)
Ignore Abazaid, what does he know about that area, anyhow?
Same for Austin Bay.
I say trust the truthtellers:
Al Franken, Hillary, and JFK2.

And by all means take Chuck Hagel's word as Gospel.
I mean if the NY Times is now interviewing him, he must be an expert, right?
"Hagel, lately a critic of President Bush on his Iraq policy, said the difference between Iraq and Vietnam is that congress didn't “ask the tough questions” back then. “As long as I am here as a U.S. senator,” he added, “I am gong to do whatever I can go make sure that isn't going to happen.” Hagel served in Vietnam and said he still has some shrapnel in his chest."
THAT's what the troops need:
More turncoats like McCain getting their MSM Badges by the week.
...just cause they are real patriots.
And Howard Fineman should get the ACCURACY IN MEDIA award for the week for an balanced, informative, and REALISTIC look at the WOT.

7/03/2005 12:53:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

The anti-western left has, over the course of history, fallen time after time for the propaganda of murderous tyrants who offered a handy platform for bashing the home society by providing the alibi of conscience.
The investment of personal, political and moral identity that this represents is so immense that after a short while such gullible dupes are simply incapable of recognising reality even when it stares them in the face.

Hence their stupefaction when confronted with the enormities of Robespierre, Stalin or Mao. To that list must now be added the Islamic jihad and Saddam Hussein. The difference is that this time these useful idiots have taken the middling people of Britain and Europe – and increasingly, it seems, of America – with them into the land of deluded wishful thinking. The result could be that this war against the jihadi terror could be lost -- at home.

Posted by melanie at June 30, 2005 07:34 PM

7/03/2005 01:15:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

A decent Christian who can no longer stand the venomous prejudice towards Israel displayed by the NGO Christian Aid has started his own website, Christian Hate, to expose the charity's biased campaigning over Israel and Palestine.

7/03/2005 01:20:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"We gave it the old college try," said Mr. Bush, in a news conference with Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jafaari. "But our opponents in the Democrat party were right. It's a quagmire. We can't beat the insurgents, and our shameless treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo have killed any chance we had at winning hearts and minds on the Arab street."

Mr. Bush said he would dispatch a U.S. envoy to the al-Qaeda embassy in Baghdad with an invitation to Mr. Zarqawi to come to Camp David and work out terms of peace, and the withdrawal timetable.

"I kind of hoped that Iraq's 25 million people would experience the blessings of freedom," Mr. Bush said, "but with mid-term elections coming up here in the states, Republicans need to show the American people that we're as sensitive to media polling data as our Democrat opponents."


7/03/2005 01:41:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

BILL HOBBS GIVES UP BLOGGING! can Belmont Club be far behind?
hat tip Glen Reynolds

7/03/2005 03:34:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hey! Hagel and JFK2 BOTH served in Vietnam!
(and McCain too)
Maybe instead of impeaching that Bas.... we should lynch him!

7/03/2005 03:54:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I found the Norman Mailer fanclub, and of course left a comment.
Don't Be a Blogger Manqué, Norman Mailer

7/03/2005 04:44:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

35 km, in that terrain, while trying to avoid being seen? I would think that 5 days would be the minimum time you would want to allow.

7/03/2005 06:53:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Col. Hunt (ret), one of FoxNews' military experts, was just on, saying the missile was indeed fired from above the ship. Fired downward at the top of the helo. 17,000 mountains in that area, he reminded. That's a BIG piece o' vertical earth. He also made a throwaway comment that it a "clearing away' operation "to go in after bin Laden." Whatever that means.

7/03/2005 07:49:00 AM  
Blogger kim said...

One team member found so far:

7/03/2005 08:05:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

The MH-47 helicopter -- a variant of the Army's twin-rotor Chinook transport -- was one of four Chinook helicopters flying together, officials have said.

7/03/2005 08:58:00 AM  
Blogger leaddog2 said...

So... How long do you think it will be before we get some valid NON-N.Y. Times or al-Jazeera propaganda about this mission?

When are we taking out the Terrorist Times Traitors?

7/03/2005 09:08:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Looking at footage of said terrain, it didn't seem particularly difficult to me. It's summer time now. The snow has cleared and pine trees abound. The terrain is very similar to something you'd find in Oregon near Hell's Canyon, I.e. not particularly challenging. :/

7/03/2005 09:09:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

leaddog2, call me when ready, I too wants to go tar & feather.

7/03/2005 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Fox reports the soldier is wounded, on his way to Landsduhl.

7/03/2005 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/03/2005 10:02:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I'm taking my homebuilt (helo) out for a spin at the top of Mauna Kea, anybody care to join me?

7/03/2005 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"When are we taking out the Terrorist Times Traitors? "
I'm working on it.
(Courage is so over.)

7/03/2005 10:08:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Plummeting into molten lava is no way to make a splash.

7/03/2005 10:18:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Mika is my co-pilot.

7/03/2005 10:20:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

G__ I hate that.

7/03/2005 10:20:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

It's a viscosity problem.

7/03/2005 10:23:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah, I got the picture in that dentistry post.

7/03/2005 10:24:00 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

Doug said...
I'm taking my homebuilt (helo) out for a spin at the top of Mauna Kea, anybody care to join me?
I saw a tv show the other day that said mauna loa has expanded by two inches. the last eruption there was preceded by a three foot expansion. its not clear if this expansion is the precurser to another eruption or just the mountain "breathing."

You can probably see some red at Po Oo Oo southwest of Kilauea

7/03/2005 10:25:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Fred's on his way.

7/03/2005 10:27:00 AM  
Blogger Cedarford said...

Surrounded writes: I can only imagine what those young men are going through. All the while, Teddy and Vicky cruise the sunny waters of Nantucket Sound, sipping their gin and tonics.

Yes, and waving to neocons and corporate Bush backers revelling in their latest "tax cut toys" racing sloops out to the Vineyard for holiday....who are also sipping their own gin and tonics.

For the wealthy so far removed from ever having to sacrifice in war unless a plane flies into their bond broker offices....war is a pity, really, especially for lower class elements lacking other career options that have to fight the silly things.

The difference between the two:

1. The Bush backers believe their job is to wave the flag, cheer their lessers in uniform, shop, travel, enjoy their tax cuts borrowed from China against the next generation paying them, and hold the President and DOD civilians blameless for anything.

2. The Teddy backers believe their job is to enjoy their tax cuts but moan against them, shop, travel, cheer the troops that they would never, ever contemplate being amongst....while faking a creepy emotional empathy for soldiers suffering....and blaming Bush and the neocons for everything.

7/03/2005 11:34:00 AM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

I think you are underestimating the terrain, not taking the loads into consideration, and ignoring the fact that they would need to do any movement in an extremely stealthy manner.

7/03/2005 11:34:00 AM  
Blogger leaddog2 said...

Doug and Buddy,

Thanks! It helps to know there are others who are TOTALLY fed up with Leftist propagada and Treason.

On the other hand, I am not sure that my thoughts on what to do with MSM like the NY Times are viable. Destroying Treason at the Times would still leave the Durbins, Kennedys, Kerry's, Pelosi's, Reid's, etc. cheering the Terrorists as hard as they can.

I am open to suggestions ????Political campaigns are all well and good, but we are beyond that point in the war for America's survival now.

7/03/2005 11:37:00 AM  
Blogger Old Patriot said...

I worked with a bunch of the Special Operations people in Vietnam, and again during my last two assignments in Germany. The Germany stuff is still classified, but I'll add a few comments about actions in Vietnam.

Many of our Special Ops people DID walk in from Vietnam into Laos and Cambodia. It was extremely risky, and took a week or longer. Others were flown in from bases in Thailand to within 30-40 kilometers of their objective, and dropped off. Retrieval was the same - you walked out to the pickup point. We didn't even TRY to pick up people from their observation point - too heavily defended.

One group I worked with personally would go in as two-man teams: one intel specialist and one native guide. Most guides were Lao or Chinese, and had had families killed by the North Vietnamese. It was a two-week mission: two days to get to the OP, ten days of watching, and two days back to the pickup point. I'm sure we lost at least three people - they're listed as "missing". Another has his name on the Wall.

The United States doesn't know how lucky it is to have not just one or two people that will do things like that, but the equivalent of a division or more.

7/03/2005 11:44:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Amen, Old Patriot--and, thanks for all you did and do.

Leaddog2, a lot of people think sedition and treason are the same thing, and First Amendment reaches out and covers Kennedy-ish type talk.

But sedition--a once and I hope future law--really only involves interference with the military, harming or obstructing the military mission 9easy enough to google up the whole story of that law).

Maybe someday, if we educate our legislators, we can again have a way of at least getting the worst of this stuff into a court, for a trial by jury.

I'd imagine if a few captured jihadis were to talk about the aid & comfort they've gained from watching our news--and if this were to be publicized--the truth of this matter may begin to take hold in the wider public.

7/03/2005 12:14:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

The NVA's General Giap, however, stated very explicitly what this sort of stuff did to help him--it's in his autobiography.

But, didn't seem to bother the sateside perps much. Never got much press play, oddly enough.

A like item from the other side would've been abugrabed to death.

7/03/2005 12:20:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I have no idea what you and this Bud guy are talking about.
I Love to Hate America.

7/03/2005 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

See here:

7/03/2005 12:31:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

You can later use the mules for meat and conserve water.

7/03/2005 12:32:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Don't despair. The less you patronize their circus shenanigans, the sooner they'll go away. In that you can set an example for others to follow.

7/03/2005 12:36:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

And I think something needs to be done about Old Patriot:
He'sQuestioning the Democrat's Patriotism!
Is THAT treason, or what?

7/03/2005 12:43:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Got a link to that video?
Do they have trails in them Afghan Mountains?
(and where are the rocks?)

7/03/2005 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

One argument you can make, is that such trails would not be well marked. But with satellite imagery it's very easy to find these not so well marked trails and have them marked on a map with GPS coordinates.

7/03/2005 12:47:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Doug, I think that footage was borrowed from CNN. But don't quote me on that.

7/03/2005 12:49:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Doug, that link is something, alright. Guy sounds p*ssed. Good.

7/03/2005 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Doug, exhelodrvr,
See here:

7/03/2005 01:32:00 PM  
Blogger NahnCee said...

A new phrase added to the lexicon: "abu-graibed to death." I like it.

"The missing blond teenager in Aruba has been abu-graibed to death."

7/03/2005 02:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I don't think you dragged the mouse down far enough, part of the address missing?

7/03/2005 02:54:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hopefully the same video I just watched will come up from link page below.
Hell's Canyon CUBED .
Doesn't look remotely like that Pic of Hell's Canyon,
Steep as hell,
Rocky, etc.
...and like ex-helo says, if you have to cross those ridgelines, no just follow them, your talking mountain climbing equipment, it looks like to me.
Video I saw shows helo landing on a pad on the side of a near vertical cliff.
It ain't Gaza!

7/03/2005 03:05:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...


7/03/2005 03:06:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The officials cited reports from the region that the helicopter struck or landed badly on the side of a mountain then went down into the ravine, suggesting little hope of survival."

7/03/2005 03:11:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"On May 31, U.S.-led coalition soldiers gave the 8,000-strong NATO force responsibility for security in much of western Afghanistan. The International Security Assistance Force, currently under NATO command, already maintains security in the capital, Kabul, and other parts of the nation.
The transfer of authority was intended to free up troops in the 18,000-soldier U.S.-led coalition to concentrate on hunting al-Qaida and Taliban holdouts in the south and east of the country."

7/03/2005 03:15:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The Green Zone"
Caller in Minneapolis:
A local Iraqi that has made several trips, and always comes back with glowing reports of progress, but all you see on the evening news is video of car bombs, over and over and over.

That's the only video they have, they never leave,
The Green Zone!

7/03/2005 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

23 of 26 ain't bad!

7/03/2005 03:47:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Doug, use the link bellow to view the comments. You'll see the full address for that jpeg there.

Also, the video I referred to earlier was taken from inside a chopper. It's not the same footage CNN has posted, but I think it's close enough. The one that reads: "U.S. forces secure crash site"


7/03/2005 03:52:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Yeah, right Bud,
Those other 3
,have only gained in intensity!tm

7/03/2005 04:44:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Is the 'Rocket fallible?
AP story says list of 36,
still not bad,
except for that intensity thing.
I'll bet the other ones are feeling very intense.

7/03/2005 04:49:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The missing blond teenager has been Aruba-graibed to death."

7/03/2005 04:55:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I saw some much knarlier terraine in some phots, but can't find them.
Yours to me look like the foothills to the ones I saw in the background in some shots.
Maybe someday we'll find out for sure.
I just know I'm not, and never have been, special forces ready!

7/03/2005 05:05:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Afghan Mountains.
There's one in your kind of terrain with the big steep boys in the background.

7/03/2005 05:12:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Doug, catch Conason & Beinart's huff-puffing about who gets to be a "journalist". Ha ha ha!

7/03/2005 05:32:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Will do: Here's more huffing and puffing and drinking and...
Uusorg carries Egle Soll in his back to win Wife-Carrying World Championships...
. Uusorg's prizes were his partner's weight in beer and a high-tech mobile phone.
Did your ancestors do that too?

7/03/2005 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Great link,
Morgan didn't used to be a real conservative, as I recall, but had a son in service.
The left is having a hard time dealing with the "new paradigm."

7/03/2005 06:06:00 PM  

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