Thursday, June 30, 2005

Nowhere Man

Politics at its most corrupt is the art of promising something for nothing; or more realistically, concealing the price for services rendered. Nobody wants to mention that "free health care" is paid for by tax deductions. Still fewer want to admit that security is obtained by force; information by compulsion; or that war involves violence. The process of "extraordinary rendition" is a case study in laundering responsibility; a description of how a commodity is provided by an astute political division of labor. The commodity in question is defense against Islamic terrorism. The Washington Post reports:

Before a CIA paramilitary team was deployed to snatch a radical Islamic cleric off the streets of Milan in February 2003, the CIA station chief in Rome briefed and sought approval from his counterpart in Italy, according to three CIA veterans with knowledge of the operation and a fourth who reviewed the matter after it took place. The previously undisclosed Italian involvement undercuts the accusation, which has fueled public resentment in Italy toward the United States, that the CIA brashly slipped into the country unannounced and uninvited to kidnap an Italian resident off the street. In fact, former and current CIA officials said, both the CIA and the Italian service agreed beforehand that if the unusual operation was to become public, as it has, neither side would confirm its involvement, a standard agreement the CIA makes with foreign intelligence services over covert operations.

Italy wanted to be rid of Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, a suspected terrorist, but was unwilling, for domestic political considerations, to act against him. Therefore it arranged to have the United States snatch him from Milan. The United States wanted information from Nasr, but for domestic political reasons, was unable to apply torture to get it, however much the Left wanted that to be true. Therefore it passed him to Egypt for actual questioning. It goes on. Canada wanted to move on a Syrian-born Canadian citizen suspected of terrorist links, which is, as everyone knows, a very un-Canadian thing to do. So it got America to do it for them. "In Canada, a government inquiry has revealed a greater role by Canadian intelligence in the Justice Department's secret 2002 'expedited removal' of a Syrian-born Canadian citizen to Syria after he was detained as he changed flights at a New York airport." The New Yorker described that incident in these terms:

Arar, a thirty-four-year-old graduate of McGill University whose family emigrated to Canada when he was a teen-ager, was arrested on September 26, 2002, at John F. Kennedy Airport. He was changing planes; he had been on vacation with his family in Tunisia, and was returning to Canada. ... Ten hours after landing in Jordan, Arar said, he was driven to Syria, where interrogators, after a day of threats, “just began beating on me.” They whipped his hands repeatedly with two-inch-thick electrical cables, and kept him in a windowless underground cell that he likened to a grave. “Not even animals could withstand it,” he said. Although he initially tried to assert his innocence, he eventually confessed to anything his tormentors wanted him to say. “You just give up,” he said. “You become like an animal.”

Then the righteous can turn around and point the finger of accusation at George W. Bush after they have gotten what they want. The New Yorker again: "A year later, in October, 2003, Arar was released without charges, after the Canadian government took up his cause." Okay. The Post described how Italy had its cake and ate it, too.

Last Thursday, an Italian magistrate issued arrest warrants for 13 U.S. intelligence operatives. The warrants charged that they kidnapped a suspected terrorist, Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr -- also known as Abu Omar -- held him hostage at two U.S. military bases and then flew him to Cairo, where he alleged to his wife in a phone call that he was tortured under interrogation.

And was that before or after Italy got is share of the information take? And any day now, US human rights organizations are going to go on about how brutality is being practiced in Syria and Egypt, though one really can't expect better of the inferior races. These would be the very same organizations who will ask what is being done to safeguard the United States against another Al Qaeda secret attack and why it wasn't done sooner. The question implicit in this cynical political game is what purpose is served by conscious self-deception.  The World War 2 generation now being criticized for dropping the atomic bomb on Japan at least had the sand to do it under its own name. Twenty first century men have another slogan: Not In My Name. It's an organization which wants the annihilation of Israel without the taint of anti-Semitism. It is separate and distinct from Not In Our Name, though one can hardly see why, because its "mission is to build, strengthen and expand resistance to stop the U.S. government's entire course of war and repression being waged in the name of 'fighting terrorism.'" Not that it is for terrorism, lest anyone misunderstand, just that whatever must be done to stop it should not be done in "our name". So to keep everybody happy what's necessary will be done in the name of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Morroco and the CIA. This is called moral behavior. But what's in a name?

Yet acquiescence to this cynical game of political correctness represents the greatest debasement of all. Not only is it cowardly and irresponsible, it allows polite society to evade, for however long it wishes, substantive debate on moral choices which should concern us all. A society which wants to wage war without seeming to shed blood is one which has no intention of confronting the ethical issues. Then we are blind in heart as we are in sight. Nothing to see here, just Move On.


Blogger erp said...

"Italy wanted to be rid of Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, a suspected terrorist, but was unwilling, for domestic political considerations, to act against him."

Domestic political considerations preclude questioning a suspected terrorist? Are Italians that smitten with Islam?

The world has gone mad when the good guys must try to protect us and by extension everyone else on the planet by subterfuge while the bad guys who want to kill all us infidels are treated gingerly lest their sensibilities and the sensibilities of their fellow hate-Americans among our allies be violated.

6/30/2005 04:25:00 AM  
Blogger Undertoad said...

I don't get this at all.

If torture really IS useful and it really is OK to torture the occasional innocent, then let's have that debate out in the open, agree to it as a people, and do it correctly without having to share the intelligence with anyone else.

Especially Syria, Egypt, Morrocco...! After they torture the people, do we have to torture them to make sure they aren't fibbing?

6/30/2005 04:49:00 AM  
Blogger ShrinkWrapped said...

Political Correctness is a system which interferes with the ability to adequately assess reality. When you are unable to call a thing by its name, you cannot understand or comprehend what it is. In the PC lexicon, torture is anything that makes its "victim" uncomfortable. Since so many are so far removed from the reality of having to defend ourselves, the discussion of what is acceptable in questioning terror suspects cannot even be addressed. Thus we end up "renditioning" suspects to less squeamish societies. It is no coincidence that "renditioning" was started by the great "lip-biter" himself, Bill Clinton, who could not allow himself to be seen as insensitive. The sound and fury over Gitmo suggests that the necessary discussion of the limits of interrogation would be a media circus celebrating the evils of the Bush administration and the high minded, "pure" values of the Democrats.
Interestingly, PC disguises and disowns the practitioners' hatred and rage by projecting it onto those who would defend us all.

6/30/2005 05:11:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Do the people who don't wnat violence done "in their name" also which that the liberation of people, the defense of the rights they hold so dear, and gnerally making the world a safer and more decent place also not be "in their name?"
And that is the real problem. They don't have the guts to help. And they can't stand the thought of such wonders being achieved without them - and therefore "not in their name."

6/30/2005 06:02:00 AM  
Blogger Don Black said...

It would seem to me that the worldwide move to isolate the United States in the vain attempt to control us has opened new fronts. The court system in Italy allows arrest power for judges to investigate crime. These laws were enacted to deal with organized crime when it seemed that nothing could stop or control that form of terrorism in Italy. As with all good ideas, the creep of politics spoils the effectiveness in time.

The idea of torture is not acceptable to Western cultures, on the surface anyway. However, the msm and their followers have forgotten a small item on their massive agendas. The governments of the Western cultures have sworn to defend their countries, citizens, and governments. When push comes to shove, what we call torture is not torture to those same nanny governments. They will do what is best for their “countries’ and to hell with the rest. It is just the United States that is held to a higher standard because we allow ourselves to be held to that higher standard.

I personally have different standards on torture as the weather changes.

6/30/2005 06:03:00 AM  
Blogger Fabio said...


Italians are not that smitten with Islam. The point is that regular police questioning, with a lawyer present and all the trimmings is not effective against the types of Abu Omar. More coercitive methods are required, those deemed illegal in most of the West.

Oh, it's not that Italian cops know nothing about coercitive interrogation (ask certain low-level drug pushers, who spent many uncomfortable nights being questioned), but probably an Imam is too high profile for that.

6/30/2005 06:07:00 AM  
Blogger Anointiata Delenda Est said...

He's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody

Doesn't have a point of view
knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me?

The Beatles.

He's not like me, W. Your post is an argument for Hiroshima, mon amour.

And for me, the awful thing is that I think we have to consider this possibility, if only to get the nightmare over quickly, lest the West be destroyed by internal self haters.

Isn't this really the sad part? We know Outrageous Islam wants to destroy us. But the extent to which beneficiaries of Pax Americana want to use faux 'morality' to kill us astounds me.


6/30/2005 06:08:00 AM  
Blogger Tony said...

Thanks for this post, Wretchard. It certainly puts the lie to the critics who say Belmont sees the war only through rosy viewscreens.

I believe that those who oppose American efforts here are not so much opposing the war on terrorism, they are denying that there is any appreciable threat. What 'war'? Their lives are fine, no terrs outside their windows, so let's all just ignore it. Like we did in the glory days of the 1990's.

Thanks again for bringing hard questions to the fore.

6/30/2005 06:13:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

This was on PAGE 19 of the NY Times!
Good enough for uber lefty Wyden, but not good enough to move on.
WASHINGTON, June 27 - Senators from both sides of the aisle competed on Monday to extol the humane treatment of detainees whom they said they saw on a weekend trip to the military detention center at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. All said they opposed closing the center.

"I feel very good" about the detainees' treatment, Ron Wyden, Democrat of Oregon, said.

That feeling was also expressed by another Democrat, Ben Nelson of Nebraska.

On Monday, Senator Jim Bunning, Republican of Kentucky, said he learned while visiting Guantánamo that some detainees "even have air-conditioning and semiprivate showers."

6/30/2005 06:43:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

There is no war
Iraq under Saddam had no terrorist ties.
The new Iranian President is really just misunderstood.
The Syrians are our Allies
The Eygptians deserve our respect and support, being that they are the driving force for Peace in the Mideast
Bill Clinton and Wesley Clarke knew how to fight a multilatteral conflict, with EU support.
Bush and his cronies are unilaterist cowboys
If we asked nice the French and the Germans would send troops to Iraq, so we could withdraw.
Three hots and a cot at Gitmo is torure, if you do not have a preset release date for the detainee.
The Battle of Iraq is a quagmire, the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming frieght train.

What have I forgot?

6/30/2005 07:07:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

That Bob Parsons favors trials for terrorists.

6/30/2005 07:09:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

The T's at Gitmo will have to be released, no Miranda Rights were read to them when they were originaly detained. Any confessions would be inadmissable in court.
Their arrest and detention are illegal, we had no Police Powers in Afghnistan. Congress did not declare War, so Bush does not have any War Power authority.

6/30/2005 07:16:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

True, oh so True.

6/30/2005 07:19:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

I can recall years ago having a "gun control" debate with a liberal friend. I tried to make the point that he was simply outsourcing the requisite violence required to protect him to the police--not necessarily a bad strategy.

He would have none of it. He pretended that there was no blood on his hands--poor sensitive soul.

6/30/2005 07:19:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Ain't it awful?
Arssociety under Bush is going to Hell.

6/30/2005 07:20:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

I think you left out that 911 didn't happen, 'Rat.

6/30/2005 07:23:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

MSM Reports Bush brought up 911 a mere 51 seconds into his address.
What a Jerk!

6/30/2005 07:31:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Faulty construction caused the collapse of those towers, why the Empire State Building survived a plane crash. Buildings were built better in the old days.

Just because the 'greens' would not let them put asbestos around the steel beams to mitigate high temperatures in the event of fire.
Cannot blame them, though.

Seriously, I still think we should send the Gitmo detainees to Uzbekistan. They have a prison system that is more suitable to the task.

6/30/2005 07:50:00 AM  
Blogger Jrod said...

This hot off the press
-- APO> Italy Denies It Knew of CIA Kidnapping --

ROME, Jun 30, 2005 (AP Online via COMTEX) -- The Italian government denied
Thursday it had prior knowledge of the alleged CIA kidnapping of a radical
Egyptian cleric in 2003, an operation that has led prosecutors to seek the
arrest of 13 purported CIA operatives.

Carlo Giovanardi, minister for relations with parliament, addressed the Senate
in response to opposition demands that Italy say whether authorities knew of
plans to kidnap the Egyptian, considered an Islamic terrorist.

Italian prosecutors have accused the 13 CIA officials of kidnapping Osama
Moustafa Hassan Nasr, known as Abu Omar, on a Milan street on Feb. 17, 2003, and
sending him to Egypt, where he reportedly was tortured.

The Egyptian preacher purportedly was seized as part of the CIA's "extraordinary
rendition" program in which suspected terrorists are transferred to third
countries without court approval, where they face interrogation and possible

Premier Silvio Berlusconi's government has summoned the U.S. ambassador who was
expected to meet with Italian officials Friday on the matter, Giovanardi said.

He said the reported operation was never "brought to the attention of the
government of the republic or national institutions," often a term used to refer
to Italy's intelligence agencies.

Therefore, he said, "it is not even possible" that Italy ever authorized such an

Prosecutors have said they are preparing extradition requests for the 13 CIA
operatives and have asked Interpol help in tracing the suspects, all identified
as U.S. citizens.

Nasr told his wife in an intercepted cell phone call from Egypt that he was
tortured, the Milan prosecutor's office has said. He reportedly was hung upside
down and subjected to extreme temperatures and loud noise that damaged his

The U.S. Embassy in Rome, the CIA in Washington and Egyptian officials have
declined to comment.

The Milan prosecutor's office called the imam's disappearance a blow to Italy's
own fight against terrorism. He had been under investigation for alleged
terrorist activity in Italy at the time of his disappearance.

Responding to Giovanardi, opposition Sen. Tana De Zulueta referred to a report
Thursday by The Washington Post that said the CIA station chief in Rome had
briefed and sought approval from an Italian official before the purported
operation, citing three unidentified CIA veterans said to have had knowledge of
the operation and a fourth said to have reviewed it after it took place.

One of the veterans claimed in the report that the CIA "told a tiny number of
people" about the action. The report said it was unclear how high in the Italian
intelligence service the information was shared or whether Berlusconi was made

At De Zulueta's reference to the article, Giovanardi shouted out: "It's false."

Repeating his address later Thursday in the Chamber of Deputies, Italy's lower
house, Giovanardi called the Post article "a report without any foundation, a
false report, which the Italian government is able to deny with great calm."

The 13 alleged CIA officers have been listed by name in a judge's report
explaining the need for their arrest, although some might be aliases, as is
often a practice of such operatives overseas. Several gave U.S. post office
boxes as their addresses.

One person described as playing a key role was identified as former Milan CIA
station chief Robert Seldon Lady, 51. The order said he had been listed as a
diplomat, but he was retired and living near Turin.

The report said the cell phone records show Lady was in Egypt from Feb. 22 to
March 15, which likely were the first days Nasr was being tortured during

It also describes how investigators traced the purported officers through a
trail of credit card information and U.S. addresses they gave to five-star
hotels in Milan around the time of Nasr's alleged abduction, as well as their
use of Italian cell phones.

It is the second time Italy has summoned the U.S. ambassador in less than four
months. In March, Ambassador Mel Sembler was called to explain the death of
Italian agent Nicola Calipari, shot at a U.S. checkpoint in Iraq after helping
free Italian hostage Giuliana Sgrena.

Calipari's death was a blow to relations between the two countries, and Italian
officials participating in a joint investigation of the shooting refused to sign
off on U.S. findings clearing American troops of any blame.

Associated Press Writer

6/30/2005 07:53:00 AM  
Blogger Pierre said...

Let it be known that I happen to believe that President Bush may be one of the greatest Presidents to ever fill that seat.

Having said that, I wish he were a lot more forceful in defending our right to defend ourselves. He needs to stand out in front of us all and call those who are jackasses, jackasses and those who are traitors, traitors. FDR had absolutely no problem challenging peoples But now as we face a 5th column the likes that would have had FDR calling out the National Guard to quell our President treats these loons like honest partners in the great debate of our country. Explain to me why Ward Churchill is not behind bars already?

Someone explain to me how this statement by FDR compares to the idiocy that is prevelent today even by our strongest defenders.

Your Government has the right to expect of all citizens that they take part in the common work of our common defense -- take loyal part from this moment forward.

I have recently set up the machinery for civilian defense. It will rapidly organize, locality by locality. It will depend on the organized effort of men and women everywhere. All will have opportunities and responsibilities to fulfill.

Defense today means more than merely fighting. It means morale, civilian as well as military; it means using every available resource; it means enlarging every useful plant. It means the use of a greater American common sense in discarding rumor and distorted statement. It means recognizing, for what they are, racketeers and fifth columnists, who are the incendiary bombs in this country of the moment.

The war against this country continues and so far the otherside is a lot better at the mind games than ours.

Pierre Legrand

6/30/2005 07:57:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Of course the Post report must be false.
Just like Newsweeks report of Koran flushing, the world cannot trust the American MSM, they are under the control of Bush, and will print false stories at his command. Valdie Putin has said as much.

6/30/2005 07:59:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Desert Rat - You forgot what Michael Moore likes to point out (at least among his fans): There is no threat from terrorism because your chances of being killed by terrorist attack are statistically insignificant.

6/30/2005 07:59:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

Nothing to do with this thread, but the following pdf link makes for interesting reading. Any comments/criticisms appreciated.


















6/30/2005 09:15:00 AM  
Blogger texasviolinist said...

Amen. We need to raise the proposition that anyone who wants to kill you is your enemy and that you have a moral duty to convince them that their desire is wrong and then, if necessary, to kill them. Unfortunately many will have to be killed before we will be able to convince many. It is ok.

I believe that we should also use coercive measures to obtain information. This should not be the direct infliction of pain because this corrupts but it can be confinement, isolation and other forms of deprivation (bread and water etc.) that will make the one confronted recognize our determination to preserve our culture and values against their intentions and actions.

I also believe that we need to execute terrorists caught on the battlefield who will not provide us with information (and maybe even those who do). The execution should be direct and without physical torture.

The only moral society is one that defends itself.

6/30/2005 09:33:00 AM  
Blogger david bennett said...

It is interesting how you take one story from the evil traitor MSM, but ignore others. Claims coming from Italian police and the legal establishment claim that they were investigating and building a case, that the CIA had been given information (while offering none of it's own) and then derailed the criminal investigation of the netowrk.

It is possible as the Wapo story you quote states that Italian police and judical authorities were not aware of a secret deal between elements of their intelligence service and the CIA.

In this case the issue comes down to Italy choosing a criminal investigation that would might have led to evidence on a large network or trusting Egyptian authorities to do better.

More importantly it comes down to a choice of legal and extra legal authority. It is telling that you regard these issues considered so important by our founders to be simply a matter of despicable "political correctness."

The poblem with your position is that you lie. Nowhere in the Wapo story which states the police and judical authorities were not informed, does it state that these authorities were declining to pursue an investigation or prosecution. This is a figment of your imagination.

It is possibly true, just as it is possibly true that the whole warrant game is a warning from Italian authroites that they are dissatisfied with US explanations in regards to the death of their intelligence officer.

From a tactical and strategic point of view (the kind of thing which would concern your readers if they had responsibilty) the incident indicates further erosion in the system of international cooperation against terrorists. The idea that this might be important is probably alien to people like you who believe that we live in a worldv where domestic political spats are the most important thing, but for those trying to cooridiante the actual battle this is not good news and mutterings about the inferiority of Italians isn't that practical a response.

6/30/2005 09:41:00 AM  
Blogger William Knight said...

pierre legrand said:

But now as we face a 5th column the likes that would have had FDR calling out the National Guard to quell our President treats these loons like honest partners in the great debate of our country. Explain to me why Ward Churchill is not behind bars already?

I'll tell you why. Because the majority of Americans are not jack-booted little proto-fascists like you. The majority of Americans still believe in the value of freedom, including the right of political free speech.

As for why your ultra-great George Bush isn't pushing the patriotism issue more, the reason is quite obvious to those who live in the reality-based community. It's because Bush has zero credibility on that issue. It's a little hard for him to call on young men and women to join the military now when he sat out the Vietnam war in the Texas National Guard, and couldn't even finish that.

6/30/2005 09:50:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

"It is possibly true, just as it is possibly true that the whole warrant game is a warning from Italian authroites that they are dissatisfied with US explanations in regards to the death of their intelligence officer."

They didn't want to coordinate with the country team (which included their own coalition staff officers.) Fine. They can damn well suck up the result. As they have.

6/30/2005 09:52:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Nobody likes to see how sausages are made.
We will not likely hear much protesting about Egypt’s primitive interrogation processes by Amnesty International. Their specialty is, after all, casting negative aspersions against the moral standards of the USG.

Foreigners that immigrate to distant shores must be held accountable for not only their actions but for the words they put forth in public, particularly incitement of illegal acts. No free nation can be expected to harbor those whose loyalty is with that of their enemies.

But here we see the inevitable friction between internal civil law enforcement and the means and methods employed by intelligence agencies in a time of war. After all, the crime of sedition by a foreign agent is not necessarily in the jurisdiction of civil authority. For is it sedition if you are dealing with an enemy combatant? What loyalty could he be expected to have, but not his tribe? Understanding that terrorists are combatants in the WoT is to understand that the solution is necessarily a military one.

The battlefield of our enemy is embedded in the shadows of the very societies they wish to conquer. No amount of passive wait and see will subdue them. Castro may have been the original thinker with the Muriel boat lift. Send us your tired, your poor, your criminals, your enemy combatants. So let’s just say that the product that Egypt sent Italy was defective. Why should Italy or any country bear the burden of another nations miscreants. Best to send them back to the feed lot for rendering.

6/30/2005 10:04:00 AM  
Blogger trish said...

"They didn't want to oordinate with the country team"

Just in case it wasn't clear...

They didn't want to coordinate with the country team IN IRAQ. That team included - and still includes - themselves.

6/30/2005 10:35:00 AM  
Blogger T said...

"And any day now, US human rights organizations are going to go on about how brutality is being practiced in Syria and Egypt, though one really can't expect better of the inferior races."

So Arabs are an inferior race?

Seig Heil Fuhror Wretchard!
Racist piece of shit.

6/30/2005 11:09:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

I laugh at iotm.

6/30/2005 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Tell me William, when did service in the Air National Guard become draft dodging? Our previous President did not even have the moral fiber to spend time in the Guard, let alone serve our Republic overseas. Being a fighter pilot, even if never engaged in a dog fight, was of a greater value to US than getting astro turf carpet burns on the knees in the back of an el camino.
Once in any branch of the service the troop has very little say in his/ her destination will be. Young Lts do not decide much of anything.

david, as to the cooperation from forgein governments and the possible breakdown of communications within those governments, I would point to the dysfunctional aspects of our own Intel/ Law Enforcement community. You could tell something to an agent of one alphabet agencies, secure in the knowledge it would never be known to an agent in another branch of our own government.
The Italians have never been known for their efficency. That their Intel agents could being using cutouts and deniability between US and their own Police is quite plausable, indeed, likely.
The quality of the criminal case that was being built against this particular individual and whether or not the Italian Police are happy is not all that important. The Italians have a history of playing both sides in the Terrorist game, going back to the Red Brigades and the assasination of Moro.
The Egyptians seem to be cooperating quite well with our efforts, you give US no credit for that.
At least you'll admit we're at war.

6/30/2005 11:15:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Judging by the trolls, school must be out. It's a shame that they didn't learn to spell.

6/30/2005 11:21:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

... the right of political free speech.

... especially when it constitutes treason.

... the reality-based community

... which held a make-believe impeachment hearing.

It's because Bush has zero credibility on that issue

... among those who are incapable of paying attention to anybody else, such as the people trying to kill us.

... he sat out the Vietnam war in the Texas National Guard

... along with the aircraft he was trained to fly.

... and couldn't even finish that.

... because the aircraft was obsolesced.

6/30/2005 11:22:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/30/2005 11:24:00 AM  
Blogger Tony said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6/30/2005 11:33:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

come on old dad, it's sometimes my typing, not my spelling that is an issue. My brain is faster than my fingers, or at least I hope it is.

6/30/2005 11:35:00 AM  
Blogger William Knight said...

desert rat said:
Being a fighter pilot, even if never engaged in a dog fight, was of a greater value to US than getting astro turf carpet burns on the knees in the back of an el camino.

It's so cute to watch the right-wing contortionist rhetoric as you desperately try to avoid and distract from the harsh reality.

The reality is that this President doesn't have the personal credibility to ask young men and women to join up and serve in the military. You can talk about Bill Clinton's El Camino all you want, along with all the other little rhetorical bullshit and strawmen that you right-wingers love, but it doesn't alter the reality of the current pathetic and incompetent leadership in the White House.

6/30/2005 11:35:00 AM  
Blogger Tony said...

A suggestion for peace: rather than write back to obnoxious posters, just read their blogs. What a hoot!

6/30/2005 11:38:00 AM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Unemployment - down
Tax rates - down
Tax Revenue - UP
Inflation - down
Personal Wealth - Up
Diversity in the Cabinet - UP
WMD in Libya - down
Korean threat - even
Iranian threat - even
Baathist threat - down
Relationship with India - Up
Relationship with Pakistan - Up
Khan's Nuke supermarket - down

Things have been worse in US,
just think back to 1981.

6/30/2005 11:47:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Desert Rat,

I know trolls, and you sir are no troll.

6/30/2005 11:48:00 AM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...


“So Arabs are an inferior race?

Seig Heil Fuhror Wretchard!
Racist piece of shit.”

Now, now IOTM. Let’s not misinterpret for the purposes of venting. The insinuation was that if we hold Arab governments to lower standards than the USG, it is because Amnesty International, liberals, et al, think they are incapable or lacking in morals, in other words, they are inferior. Wretchard suggests that it is racist to do so. Subtle irony is not your forte.


Perhaps holding up the actions of previous presidents equally seems a dodge, but it isn’t. Saying that GWB flying a high performance interceptor is the same as dodging the draft is ludicrous. The individual may be able to choose the branch of service in which they serve, they may even be able to choose their specialty, but they can not choose their war.

BTW, I more or less agree with your comments in regards to Churchill, he is after all an American citizen, but your post lacked its usual civility and quickly sunk into unrestrained venality.

6/30/2005 11:58:00 AM  
Blogger William Knight said...

annoy mouse said:
BTW, I more or less agree with your comments in regards to Churchill, he is after all an American citizen, but your post lacked its usual civility and quickly sunk into unrestrained venality.

I plead guilty on that score. I guess the previous posting about jailing people for expressing their political opinions really got to me.

6/30/2005 12:25:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

As for my venality directed at Desert Rat, it was because he was raising a distraction rather than addressing the point of my post. The point is not whether George Bush has more credibility than Bill Clinton in a time of war, the point is whether George Bush has sufficient credibility on his own to ask our young people to join the military. The plain fact is that George Bush does not have that credibility.

6/30/2005 12:42:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Just a general sentiment: God forbid our safety ever becomes contingent upon the political process of the Italians. Better to annex the country than that.

6/30/2005 12:43:00 PM  
Blogger noprisoners said...

One thing that I have never seen explained by the MSM or any of President Bush's critics on his service in the TANG is that the F-102, as a fighter interceptor, was designed for the purpose of intercepting Soviet bombers en route to the U.S. To my knowledge, no F-102's were used in the Vietnam conflict. Perhaps these critics and trolls think that the Soviet Union ceased to be a threat during the Vietnam era. Or that we ever enjoyed the luxury of not needing to defend ourselves from nuclear attack by manned bombers. The truth is that they, and the nuclear threat that they posed, was the backstop for the Viet Cong. This is one reason why we did not bomb the bejesus out of serious military targets in North Vietnam among other things.

6/30/2005 12:44:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Bah, Knight--of course he has that credibility. How do you live being such a whore of the media, whose tiny inexpert preoccupations circumscribe your own "political opinions"?

6/30/2005 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger T said...

If that's the case annoy mouse then wretchard's point is hypocritical while still being invertly racist as opposed to overtly.

Syria doesn't claim to be a human rights bastion bestowed with the burden of spreading "freedom and democracy" to the rest of the world. The US, like Wretchard, believes in this White Man's Burden, which is still outward racism.

Amnesty International certainly isn't any less critical of Arab dictatorships or China for example, but they don't set these countries bar very high for themselves. The US claims all this nonsense about freedom and democracy, braggarts should be held to a higher standard and hypocrites punished more severely.

The trend in the US is refusing freedom and democracy. While other nations are extending basic human rights to gays and lesbians, the US is banning gay marriage and considering constitutional ammendments to that effect. Other countries sign onto the International Criminal Court, the US tortures people.

Imagine if say the Phillipines declared that it's goal should be to rid the world's governments of corruptions. It would be a laughing stock because of it's own corruption, and therefore criticized more than a nation like say Haiti, which is a million times more corrupt. The criticizer is not setting a low bar for Haiti out of racism or whatever, the Phillipines is setting a high bar for itself, and deserves to be attacked for it.

Same goes for the US on human rights.

If you're going to claim to be the harbinger of democracy and freedom, you deserve to be held to a higher standard.

6/30/2005 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

We live in a democracy of ideas as well as a political democracy. You would note that there are many who would decent on your view that GWB has no credibility. More aptly, there are those in the armed services who would not take into account the so called credibility of the Commanders and Chief because he is a duly elected leader, and it is their oath to follow as such. Many 19 year olds don’t see themselves as being worthy of being president. After their time in the armed services, they just may develop the leadership skills necessary.

There were those who would not serve under W.J Clinton just as their are those who would not serve under H.Clinton, but as long as there is no draft, it is their choice to make.

6/30/2005 12:54:00 PM  
Blogger erp said...

No less a legal brainiac than UCLA Professor of Law Eugene Volokh The Volokh Conspiracy has stated that Churchill's speech is protected.

6/30/2005 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

Are you equating the desire to spread democracy(where stability of tyrants in the past was the norm) with “white man’s burden”? If so just say so. The promotion of democracy is not being pushed forwarded by some moralistic point of view, but as a more humane way of dealing with the cause and effect of Islamic militancy.

In regards to the ICC, our Constitution forbids the usurpation of the US law to foreign courts where “international” jurisdiction is concerned. Not to mentioned that we do not get a fair shake in Belgium.

I wont touch your assertions that the US tortures people because I do not believe that you can make a compelling case for this.

As far as special rights for people who have sex with the same sex, now I think I see where your priorities are. Did mommy and daddy reject your for being who you really are? If so, take it out on the world, better yet, take it out on the big bogey man GWB. Doing so puts you on the same par as world leaders.

But I would like to especially thank you for “coming out” and telling what you really think, that the US must be held to a higher standard.

6/30/2005 01:12:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I sure hope wretchard writes a piece about what it's like to be invertly racist.

6/30/2005 01:43:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Since my son enlisted in the USMC after Bush was elected, and believes him to be a superior CiC, voiding the crux of your argument, or so it seems. The fact that Bush was a fighter pilot does not lessen his credibility. The last election seems proof that to the majority of the electorate Bush's credibility is deemed adequate.
Where and when did you serve in the Armed Forces? I'd like to know because I'm interested in your credibility and depth of knowledge in so far as military service is concerned.

My point about the burnt knees is simple. The President is the CiC no matter his past exploits, once elected he represents the US, like it or not. Bush, Clinton, Reagan or Carter all had their detractors and supporters. I served under both Carter and Reagan. We were losing the "Cold" Global War under Carter, the tide turned when Reagan took command.
Now we are in a new conflict, if you attack the credibility of the President you are attacking the credibility of the US, like it or not.
If you have policy differences with this administration you should articulate them, perhaps you could convince readers of your correctness. Name calling and the politics of personal destruction will not convince many adults of the validity of your thoughts.
If you really have any.

6/30/2005 01:45:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

iotm says,
"The trend in the US is refusing freedom and democracy. While other nations are extending basic human rights to gays and lesbians, the US is banning gay marriage and considering constitutional ammendments to that effect"
70% of the people in this DEMOCRATIC Republic oppose inventing the "right" of Gay Marriage.

6/30/2005 01:51:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...


The F-102 was used in Vietnam. Here's a very informative Freeper post on the subject of this jet and Pres. Bush's service in it.

6/30/2005 01:54:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I claim my right as an American to Harbingers and Freedom Fries.

6/30/2005 01:55:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Hey tony,
You didn't answer my query about where you put the F-4 in the pantheon of great aircraft.

6/30/2005 01:57:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

THe F-4 is the all-time greatest aircraft! Incredibly versatile!

6/30/2005 02:00:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Among the many innovations incorporated into the design were the use of the area rule to reduce aerodynamic drag"
What was that?

6/30/2005 02:01:00 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Word Doug--people seem so easily to forget their democratic principles in even the most forthright and transparent expression of the will of the masses. How many states have adopted protection of marriage acts and constitutional amendments "banning gay marriage"--i.e., establishing a definition of marriage as between a man and a woman? Is it 11? In any case, every such amendment has passed, even in the more liberal states, as far as I know. Damned inconvenient eh?

6/30/2005 02:02:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Finally, the Details, thanks tony!
"Even in peacetime conditions, F-102 pilots risked their lives on every flight. Only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today's combat aircraft. For example, the F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14, the S-3 is at 2.6, the F-15 at 2.47, the F-18 at 4.9, and the F-117 at 4.07. Even the AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in service today, has an accident rate of only 11.05 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.

Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, pilots from the 147th FIG of the Texas ANG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for periods of three to six months for frontline duty. Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required."

6/30/2005 02:07:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...


Thank you for the link. I stand very well corrected.

6/30/2005 02:08:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Did you see my post in a previous thread that Dan from Cos got a message from CNN about his Eason Jordan piece?

6/30/2005 02:09:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

A thinner fuselage (with the area of the fuselage decreased by the cross-area of the wing) where the wing joins the fuselage results in a smaller transonic shock wave and thus better performance in that environment.

6/30/2005 02:11:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

Doug, Exhelo,

Imho, the F-4 is like the Corvette of planes, and I think it has the largest number of combat kills of any jet aircraft. It has that really cool dihedral tail (have to ask RWE what that means) that makes it look like a ray or a shark. It was extremely versatile, only something like the F-18 Hornet could compare in versatility, including carrier ops. It's just so cool looking.

The shark-like look has peaked with the F-16, of course.

The ultimate air supremacy fighter is the boxy-looking F-15, with those squarish, upright dual tails it looks staid and uptight compared to the F-4 or F-16, at least to this Walter Mitty.

But, c'mon, the world's greatest plane is the SR-71 Blackbird.

6/30/2005 02:12:00 PM  
Blogger Tilo Reber said...

I hope that all of you have gone to this site to tell our troops that you appreciate them.

6/30/2005 02:14:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

No way.

The SR-71 couldn't dogfight, couldn't bomb; all it could do is take pictures and intercept bombers!! (It does look really cool, though!)

6/30/2005 02:14:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Furthermore, the war in Vietnam was nearing its end and the US was withdrawing its forces from the theater. Air Force personnel returning to the US created a glut of active-duty pilots, and there were not enough aircraft available to accommodate all of the qualified USAF and ANG pilots. Since USAF personnel had priority for the billets available, many of the Air National Guard pilots whose enlistments were nearly complete requested early release. The ANG was eager to fulfill these requests because there was not enough time to retrain F-102 pilots to operate new aircraft before their enlistments were up anyway. Bush was one of those forced out by the transition, and he was honorably discharged as a first lieutenant in October 1973, eight months before his six-year enlistment was complete. Bush had approximately 600 flight hours by the time he completed his military service. In the fall of 1973, Bush began coursework at the Harvard Business School where he received an MBA in 1975.

6/30/2005 02:17:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Tony, Doug,

Your facts are inconvenient to my world view. Please revise. If Chimpy McBushhitler is not a draft dodger, well I'll just wet myself.

--Howard Dean

6/30/2005 02:17:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Think iotm would call it an invertly dihedral tail.
Definitely looked cool, esp going straight up!
The b....... from LNAS CA would fly down our narrow canyon and scare the s... out of this young farmer!
Talk about a sudden noise!
Shock and Awe.

6/30/2005 02:21:00 PM  
Blogger wretchardthecat said...


Sorry if my attempts at subtlety were a failure. Let me make my point plain. I'd rather we tortured people ourselves or decided not to torture them at all; rather the Canadians picked up their terrorists or decided not to pick them up at all; rather the Italians ate their cake and liked it or ate it not at all. Then people couldn't take refuge in a false sense of innocence or moral superiority.

But there's yet more subtlety. I can't help but think of rendition -- which was started by the Clinton Administration and continued by the Bush -- as a continuation of the concept of deniability. National security defense had to be seen as doing everything yet doing nothing. The decline in CIA humint stemmed in large part from a reluctance to employ American spies; American moles. Case officers stayed in the embassy and "rendered" the spying task. That's not to say Americans didn't do anything, but if caught they were on their own. Even during Vietnam, the SOG rules for recon teams operating in certain conditions precluded rescue or air support if discovered. Tell me this is not related to the fastidiousness of politicians, unrelated to political correctness. The consequence of not being able to call our enemies by their proper names is not being able to recognize ourselves.

The solution to the need to "do everything" but "do nothing" that the oversight committees or Amnesty International would object to was to do everything secretly. David Bennett talks about "legal" and "extralegal" authority. I want to talk about "honest" and "dishonest". If Hiroshima had to be bombed today the politicians would hire a Pakistani to do it. Forgive me if I find something strange about that.

Some posts ago I conjectured that if terrorists believed they could attack America with a deniable nuclear weapon they had better make sure they that Mecca would not be vaporized by a deniable retaliatory device. We are morally well along that road.

6/30/2005 02:21:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

desert rat said:

Since my son enlisted in the USMC after Bush was elected, and believes him to be a superior CiC, voiding the crux of your argument, or so it seems.

Afraid not. Your son may be confident in George Bush's leadership, but unfortunately your son's opinion doesn't represent the total pool of young people eligible for military service. Judging from the recruiting problem the military is facing, the evidence indicates that many young people have SERIOUS concerns about our our current leadership. With good reason.

By the way, does your son feel as confident in George Bush now as when he signed up?

The fact that Bush was a fighter pilot does not lessen his credibility.

The fact that Bush was a fighter pilot back home while a shooting war was going on overseas DOES lessen his credibility at military recruitment. How could he ask young people to risk their lives today when he wasn't willing to do the same?

Where and when did you serve in the Armed Forces? I'd like to know because I'm interested in your credibility and depth of knowledge in so far as military service is concerned.

Nice try, yet again. First you want to distract away from George Bush to Bill Clinton. Now you want to distract away from Bush to me. I'm not the current commander in chief, George Bush is. And he is a failure at leading our country.

6/30/2005 02:22:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The consequence of not being able to call our enemies by their proper names is not being able to recognize ourselves.
One of the biggest problems of our times, imo.

6/30/2005 02:28:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Oh, Nowhere Man.
Slow Doug

6/30/2005 02:28:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"The fact that Bush was a fighter pilot back home while a shooting war was going on overseas DOES lessen his credibility at military recruitment. How could he ask young people to risk their lives today when he wasn't willing to do the same?
It's a false argument AND you are wrong on the FACTS about President Bush's service, William:
Read them up above, inform yourself so as not to appear ignorant and immature.

6/30/2005 02:33:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...


It goes faster and higher, that's the main things a plane does, correct?

And it looks cooler than anything in the movie Star Wars.

At the new Smithsonian Museum you enter at a level raised above the floor of the main hangar. As you walk straight in, you end up looking over the railing down at the SR-71, in all its man-made wonder and glory. Only God had this view when it was in the sky.

The gentleman giving the talk was an old Blackbird crew dog, really happy to share the experience. He mentioned that for missions over Vietnam, they would have a string of eleven tankers from Okinawa to Thailand.

Just take pictures, eh?

6/30/2005 02:37:00 PM  
Blogger Pierre said...

Ward Churchill latest forays into the wide world of "Free Speech" is calling for soldiers to "frag" their officers specifically to render that combat team "Combat ineffective". That sort of crap is not protected. Back in FDR's day that sort of speech would have gotten you a quick trip to jail.

As far as being a Proto Facist...muahaha...yea whatever. If I am Proto Facist then so was FDR.


6/30/2005 02:38:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

doug said:
it's a false argument AND you are wrong on the FACTS about President Bush's service, William

You say that I'm wrong on the FACTS about Bush's service. Please tell me which particular fact about his military service that I am wrong about, doug.

6/30/2005 02:38:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

William Knight,

First, I recognize that there is absolutely nothing that I or anyone else could post that would change your mind about the President.

But I will challenge your argument. First define "credibility" and provide metrics. Second, site your sources referencing how this President's credibility as you define it has caused a drop in enlistment. It's simple cause and effect--now prove it.

6/30/2005 02:41:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

General Myers reported yesterday that the Army met last months recruiting goal, Airforce and Navy are turning people away and the Marines are on target to meet their annual goal.

Jr returned from Iraq in March, deploys again in Feb., still thinks Bush is ok. He has seen the deal in Iraq first hand and volenteered to go back.
Once again, a person in the military does not choose where they go. The needs of the service are paramount, not the desires of the individual.

Again there are no specifics to your charges of incompetence and failure, only name calling.

Of course we cannot talk about your personal experiance, perhaps there is nothing there to talk about.

6/30/2005 02:41:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

You reveal yourself as incorrigibly ignorant.
Your charges are here about President Bush.
The Facts are here about President Bush refuting your charges.

6/30/2005 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

pierre legrand said:

Ward Churchill latest forays into the wide world of "Free Speech" is calling for soldiers to "frag" their officers specifically to render that combat team "Combat ineffective". That sort of crap is not protected.

I'm no fan of Ward Churchill, but as long as he is not engaged in a direct conspiracy to commit violence (and what he said doesn't amount to that), then his speech is politically protected.

I've also seen plenty of posts right here on this blog by wackos advocating that we bomb the crap out of various cities in the Middle East, which is incitement to mass murder, as far as I'm concerned. But it's protected political speech, just like Churchill's.

6/30/2005 02:49:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

"a string of eleven tankers from Okinawa to Thailand."
So when it set it's cross country record how many times did it have to slow down to refuel?

6/30/2005 02:51:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

doug said:
You reveal yourself as incorrigibly ignorant. Your charges are here about President Bush. The Facts are here about President Bush refuting your charges. Sad.

Uh.... where? What specific fact did I state incorrectly doug?

6/30/2005 02:51:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

If faster and higher were the only things that mattered, the MiG-25/MiG-30 would have been the best non-SR-71 aircraft ever. Of course, if you take tactical capabilities into account ...

6/30/2005 02:52:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

You are right about that william, Mr Churchill can spout all the nonsense he wants, and he does.
I do not believe he has been hampered in any way by the Federal Government, as it should be.
Jr thinks so to, he even defends your right to ignorance, ain't that grand. Even if you are incompetent and a failure, unelectable to any public office or deserving of public trust, the US Military will come to your aid in times of need. Ask those students from Granada

6/30/2005 02:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

If you will not educate yourself by reading the facts and comparing them to your charges, I will not try to do so for you.

6/30/2005 02:57:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

William, sir.

6/30/2005 02:57:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

desert rat said:

General Myers reported yesterday that the Army met last months recruiting goal, Airforce and Navy are turning people away and the Marines are on target to meet their annual goal.

After about a 2 microsecond search on Google, I found this article from that MSM rag, the Army Times:

May recruiting goal
off by 25 percent

By Joseph R. Chenelly
Times staff writer

The Army cut its active duty recruiting goal for May by 1,350 recruits but still missed it by 25 percent.

The Army has stated since last year, and as recently as April 25, that it aimed to ship 8.050 recruits to basic training in May. But, without any public announcement, the service lowered its goal to 6,700.

It shipped a little more than 5,000, according to Army officials.

Recruiters would have achieved less than 63 percent of its goal had it not been lowered. Nonetheless, the active Army has now missed its goals four consecutive months.

I guess if you just cut your goals enough, you'll always meet them, eh?

6/30/2005 02:58:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...


We're just talking "best plane" - I'm not sure what you mean about tactical capabilities exactly.

I read those MiGs burned their engines out on each futile pursuit of an A-12 or SR-71. No SR-71's were ever lost to enemy fire, including thousands of missions in the highly defended airspace over Vietnam.

Btw, I don't think we're going to be able to spin up a good argument about planes, since we like them all.

6/30/2005 02:59:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

What is the point william, you do not state facts, only opinion wrap in a veneer of BS

6/30/2005 03:01:00 PM  
Blogger Annoy Mouse said...

rumors had it that the SR-71 and its x-plane predecessor were capable of delivering a tactical nuke right on the Kremlin.

6/30/2005 03:03:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I am speaking of facts about Bush, the recruiting challenge is real. I guess you may be right, we will just have to take Charlie Rengals advise and fire up the draft.

6/30/2005 03:04:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Rangel? Rengal? I'm not sure how the Democratic Congressman from New York spells his name. He served in the military and while he and I do not agree on much, he can and does represent his constituents. If New Yorkers think we need a military draft, well who am I to argue.

6/30/2005 03:08:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

I am not all that crazy about the F22. A10's, now those are the bomb.

6/30/2005 03:12:00 PM  
Blogger Jrod said...


6/30/2005 03:12:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...


The one in the museum flew from LA to DC in 64 minutes. They only averaged about 2,150 mph. I guess they were coasting a little to save gas, so they probably made it without refueling. I dunno.

Here's the full flight record, maybe someone can tell for sure from reading this:
SR-71 #972 Final Record Flight

6/30/2005 03:12:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...


The SR-71 / A-12 (one?) had the D-21, a "drone" I think it was called. It looked very much like, and I guess was very much like, one of the enormous engines. The mothership would launch these babies off their back and who knows, I guess they could carry weapons.

Problem was, it crashed the mothership when they tested air launch, so they were never used.

The real X-Planes, most especially the X-15, now THAT would have made a mean cruise missile.

6/30/2005 03:20:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...


The F-22 is cool, has super-cruise, goes supersonic without afterburners. Saves gas.

Of course, its engine probably costs more than an A-10.

6/30/2005 03:24:00 PM  
Blogger desert rat said...

Yeah, costs a friggin' fortune to buy one, but if it gets good gas mileage...
Money that could be better spent elsewhere. Our other fighters, while old designs, are still the best in the world. Build new F15's, 16's or 18's if we need more fighters

6/30/2005 03:28:00 PM  
Blogger Jrod said...

One point I think is overlooked in the discussion about the problem the Army and Marines have had in meeting their recruitment goals is the open hostility that recruiters are met with on the majority of campuses nationwide--assuming they're allowed on in the first place. I could be wrong, but I can't imagine too many guidance counselors are encouraging young men and women who are inclined to explore a military career to do so. It just makes our job as a nation that much more difficult when the left continually sticks their thumb in Uncle Sam's eye by these and other means. I wonder how much more progress we would have made thus far in this fight against Islamofascism if we were able to present a unified face to the world? As far as "professor" Churchill is concerned, he is certainly entitled to his freedom from censorship, but he is not free from the potential consequences of the bile he spews.

6/30/2005 03:32:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

There have been successful tests within the past few months with "scramjet" engines; one of the end results of those would likely be cruise missiles with speeds of mach6-10.

6/30/2005 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger exhelodrvr1 said...

Starting up production lines that have been closed down, for a limited number of aircraft, is extremely expensive "per copy;" when that is for technology that is 20 years old, it generally doesn't make sense to do that. In the long term, it's more economically responsible to upgrade the technology, even though there are R&D costs.

6/30/2005 03:38:00 PM  
Blogger heather said...

Pontius Pilate used to be our culture's Bad Guy. I guess that a mark of Canada's corruption is that our elites admire him for his clean hands.

6/30/2005 04:02:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

Tony: They did fly the GTD-21 off the SR-71 and its predecessort, the A-11. They used it for high risk overflight missions but did lose one SR-71 when the GTD-21 drone hung up. Thereafter they launched it from B-52's. The thing had incredible range for its size, thousands of miles. Used a Marquart ramjet.
I think we not only got rid of the SR-71 because of we have better capabilities on orbit now, but also because it was politcally unacceptable to fly one over countries that had the potential capability to shoot it down, and for countries that did not have the capability to shoot down an SR-71 they also could not shoot down a U-2.
As for the tankers for the SR-71's, those were not standard airplanes but KC-135Q's that could handle the special fuel. And it took a lot of 135Q's to handle all the SR-71's. They even lost one SR-71 near Vietnam when they could not find the tanker.
Jrod: yes you are right about that. And just think. Those people are deliberately making it more difficult to recruit and then saying that failure to make the goals in a given month means something.

6/30/2005 04:31:00 PM  
Blogger Pierre said...

Treason as defined in the Federalist Papers. I believe that in the 1940's Ward Churchill would have faced treason charges. Now under our much looser definitions I agree that he probably won't face any charges. A shame.


Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned for not less than five years, and fined not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. (Emphasis added) The concept of 'adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort' was further defined by the Supreme Court as: 'Strengthening or tending to strengthen the ability of the enemies of the United States, or which weakens or tends to weaken the power of the United States to resist and attack such enemies.'12

6/30/2005 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

We don't even mind when you steal the nuclear crown jewels and give them to the Chicoms.
Nor "leaking" state secrets.
and etc...
A real problem, and yet another area where we think we can play "lets pretend" with the facts and eternal realities.
Both are stubborn.
Let's stop pretending.

6/30/2005 05:02:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

pierre legrand said:

The concept of 'adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort' was further defined by the Supreme Court as: 'Strengthening or tending to strengthen the ability of the enemies of the United States, or which weakens or tends to weaken the power of the United States to resist and attack such enemies.'

Well, since the lame military record of George Bush has clearly weakened his ability to recruit for our current war, then by that definition George Bush could be found guilty of treason.

Of course, I'm not stating that Bush is guilty of treason, I'm just demonstrating how asinine your reasoning is.

6/30/2005 05:09:00 PM  
Blogger Tony said...

Exhelo, Rwe,

Thanks for sharing. Whoa!

The baby-ship on the Blackbird, way back in the 60's, was pretty much a scramjet. It didn't have a regular engine, it didn't light up until the mothership took it supersonic to induce flow into that inspired intake with the movable spike.

Full Disclosure: I write about this stuff to celebrate American "can do".

6/30/2005 05:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

How do you think you are not making a fool of yourself, William, when the FACTS about GWB's honorable service are
Yet you continue to spout your drivel as though you don't know how to read.
We know you can which makes your refusal to confront the FACTS that much more foolish, absurd, and childlike.

6/30/2005 05:26:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Those in the know used the correct terminology - anhedral.

6/30/2005 05:27:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

And Tony,
Back on "Big Sleaze,"
Your question I do not get.
Please explain for the old man.
(there, of course: We're setting an ot record, I fear)
...but at least we get a full demo of William's foolishness and refusal to face facts.

6/30/2005 05:30:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

Here are the FACTS about the miltary service of George Bush:

Fact #1: At the time Bush went into the service, there were military people fighting overseas in a bloody war

Fact #2: George Bush, instead of going to fight in Vietnam, joined the Texas National Guard back home, where nobody was getting shot at.

Fact #3: Before finishing his commitment to the Texas National Guard, George Bush left for Alabama to work on a GOP political campaign.

These are FACTS Doug. If you don't agree with these three FACTS, then state right here and now in detail exactly which of these three FACTS are incorrect and why.

6/30/2005 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Well, since the lame military record of George Bush has clearly weakened his ability to recruit for our current war...

You're clearly overreaching with this argument-- you're declaring a causal relationship without any evidence for causality, completely regardless of whether Bush's military record is considered "lame" by any potential recruits.

I believe that jrod offers a much more plausible explanation, but feel free to continue blaming Bush.

6/30/2005 05:45:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

As a whole,society has become divorced from most of the harsher realties of life.
We eat meat but conceal the realities of the slaughterhouse,the bloody job is done by anonymous people,very much as the military ar expected to perform their task,cleanly,efficiently and out of sight.
No one has an ambition to be a sewage farm worker, but everyone expects it to be gone and to have clean water on tap.
Similarly, society expects to be safe but without the realities obtruding into their nice ordered lives.
In essence our societies are effete and if this were the age of cavalry,sword and spear,much of the West would have fallen to the barbarians.

6/30/2005 05:46:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

RCMP shared intelligence with Syria, Arar inquiry told .
Cabana said in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks in 2001, his superiors told him to waive some of the normal safeguards on the transfer of sensitive information.

Arar, a Syrian-born Canadian citizen, was deported in September 2002 by U.S. authorities after they arrested him in New York as he was flying home to Canada.

The Ottawa engineer spent almost a year in prison in Syria and says he was repeatedly tortured.

6/30/2005 05:52:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

William, you fool,
Read the FACTS in my posts of
2:07 PM and 2:17 PM.
I grow weary of your childlike petulance.

6/30/2005 05:56:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Peter said,
"No one has an ambition to be a sewage farm worker, but everyone expects it to be gone and to have clean water on tap."
The Brown Trout Pond.
I ran one myself for a few years, not that unpleasant, really, as long as you kept things aerobic.

The guys that pumped out the wells talked of all sorts of "incidents", and one tough portagee cowboy said he just left it on his wounded hand to speed the healing!
Your point of course is correct.
I think it is true that we are running headlong into a nursing shortage here.
That's a job that would be last on my list.

6/30/2005 06:04:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Senators Laud Treatment of Detainees in Guantánamo .
Wyden, et al.

6/30/2005 06:10:00 PM  
Blogger Victor-Mike-Love said...

Good to know that there are people out there like David and William who go the extra mile to expose individuals lacking credibility.
While we're on the subject, here's David falsely accusing Wretchard of deleting the Belmont Club archives in order to cover up the United States Army's "imminent defeat" in Iraq.

Just thought you might like to know.

6/30/2005 06:24:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Divide and conquer. Sad to see that jihadis are getting better at this than us.

6/30/2005 06:29:00 PM  
Blogger RWE said...

By the way, any of y'all ever see inside the cockpit of an F-102A? You basically could not see out the front. Between the sharp angle of the windscreen, the shade which enabled you to see the radar scope, the anti-ice wire on the windows and the crazing of the glass you were all but blind straight ahead. You pointed that thing at what you hoped was the runway and guessed. In the early 70's they had a SCANG 102A mid-air with an EC-130. They jammed his radar during an exercise and he could not see them visually. I fly airplanes for fun and used to work on them as my job and there is no way you would get me in one of those things.
The F-102A was the ONE airplane that the National Guard deployed to Vietnam. The regular Air Force was not flying them by the time that the war came along and they needed the later airplanes, the F-106's, where the the threat was greater but they still needed a hot pad air defense capability. They ended up using the F-102's for RESCAP over downed pilots since they could get in the air and faster to the area than anyone else. They flew around low popping off rockets to keep Charlie's heads down while the chopper came in.
It is my understanding that G.W. Bush volunteered to go to Viet Nam on an F-102 assignment, but was not chosen.
Of course if he had gone to Vietnam with the 102 it would now be "Well, he was up there nice and safe in a jet fighter while John Kerry was getting shot at for real so it does not count."
Someone ought to compare the fatality rate for Century series fighter pilots in "peacetime" with that for troops in Vietnam. Probably would be surprising.

6/30/2005 06:31:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

rwe said:
It is my understanding that G.W. Bush volunteered to go to Viet Nam on an F-102 assignment, but was not chosen.

Bush on 'Meet the Press', Feb. 8, 2004:

Russert: Were you favor of the war in Vietnam?

President Bush: I supported my government. I did. And would have gone had my unit been called up, by the way.

Russert: But you didn't volunteer or enlist to go.

President Bush: No, I didn't. You're right. I served. I flew fighters and enjoyed it, and provided a service to our country. In those days we had what was called "air defense command," and it was a part of the air defense command system.

6/30/2005 07:32:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Anybody looked at Wee Willie Knights Site? Ye gods and little fishes,he hasn't moved on from finger painting and he has the audacity to comment.
Another Troll trawling for visitors

6/30/2005 07:35:00 PM  
Blogger William Knight said...

Where's your site, 'peter uk'? I clicked on it and came up with zip. Perhaps you don't have the bollocks to have a real site of your own.

6/30/2005 07:46:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Bill,what a tit!

6/30/2005 07:48:00 PM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

The F-102A was designed as an interceptor to counter the Soviet Tu-95 nuclear bomber.The aircraft was stationed in Vietnam but was totally unsuitable for conditions there
Since the North Vietnamese had no bombers the F-102A never had any duties of the type for which they were designed.It is therefore highly unlikely that George Bush would have seen action in Vietnam.
The cold war was at its height and the F-102A s were deemed more useful in the skies over the US.
The former C in C of the American Military Bill Clinton was being "renditioned" in the UK,chasing tail and smoking dope.Dash it all he missed the war completely
So if we are going to be wildly off topic lets talk about Clintons war,if you must make comparisons between Republicans and Democrats,

6/30/2005 08:05:00 PM  
Blogger subpatre said...

Yeah yeah yeah, William Knight. "We all know about Chickenhawks – those people who support war but aren’t willing to walk down to the recruiter’s office and sign up! The cowards. How dare someone want somebody else to do the dirty work for them! Well, they’re not alone! Here is a list of other cowards and their hypocracy.

ChickenCops – People who call 911 expecting the police to protect them when they’re too scared to join the force themselves.....
Courtesy of Sharp as Marbles.

6/30/2005 08:25:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required."

6/30/2005 10:21:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Kerry would have boastfully gone into all these details, leaving the impression with the uniformed that his heroism surpassed Yeager's,
Bush, coming from more modest stock, simply answered the question,

6/30/2005 10:24:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...


7/01/2005 12:42:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Most important are the Chicken Surgeons,those who need a prefrontal lobotomy but are too chicken to saw a hole in their heads themselves.

7/01/2005 03:21:00 AM  
Blogger Peter UK said...

Another point about the F-103A is that it was a suicide plane,very poor at landing,but that was unimportant since it was only expexted to down a nuclear bomber,it wasn't expected to come back.
For those who might be unaware,the "Russsian Bears" Tu-95s constantly probed the edge of US airspace,nobody,repeat nobody, knew if or when the "Bears" would carry on to their designated targets.

7/01/2005 03:30:00 AM  
Blogger Fabio said...

I must admit, Italy tried to have it both ways for far too long - be ally of the USA but not discontent Lybia is only one of the examples. I'm not that proud of this aspect of my country.

It may be that the denial from some Italian authorities is just, indeed, deniability. They try not to figure as those who let the CIA seize the bastard, but in truth it was all coordinated.

For myself, I wouldn't be too appalled knowing that a jihadi has been seized out of the bonds of the law and interrogated harshly by Italian secret service. It's a war, not time for niceties.

7/01/2005 03:39:00 AM  
Blogger Marcus Aurelius said...

I oppose murder. I have never been a policeman. Is my anti-murder position now compromised?

Oh, I see someone beat me to it. Oh well!

7/01/2005 04:55:00 AM  
Blogger RWE said...

Thanks, Doug, that clears it up. I heard that he had looekd into the 102's in Nam program, but it appears that he did not have enough flight time to be accepted, so he did not bother to volunteer. Makes sense. Was wanted to go but did not qulaify and thus did not volunteer/
But fact is, the 102 was used in Vietnam, was flown by National Guard pilots, and while not well suited to the situation, it did fly combat, if you call scrambling on an instant's notice, shooting at people and being shot at "combat."
Then, of course, after never having fired at an enemy aircraft, and over 25 years after it was retired as a fighter, the F-102 shot down CBS News. "Splash one Rather."

7/01/2005 06:09:00 AM  
Blogger Madison said...

I would have to make two comments-that is I agree wholeheartedly that the Italian government is starting to seem to weak or actually congenial with the Islamic terrorist movement. They undermine U.S. efforts with their press coverage. Although, I could also blame the American Media for covering their ridiculous opinions and actions anyways..
I wanted to address one statement that I found odd in a post here 'inferior races'? The Syrians and Egyptians are not a race, they are part of the Middle East. And more importantly, their governments are undermined and controlled by the Islamic fundamentalist terrorist movements. Their treatment of people-as far as abuse-is directly related to a culture that is far different from anything we know...but to identify it as what you would expect of an inferior race is just ridiculous and sounds ignorant.

7/01/2005 09:16:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

Wretchard's subtle cut against the hypocrisy of human rights organizations appears to have been lost on more than a few readers. Let's look at that sentence again:

And any day now, US human rights organizations are going to go on about how brutality is being practiced in Syria and Egypt, though one really can't expect better of the inferior races.

Obviously, US human rights organizations do not criticize known brutality in Syria or Egypt-- or many other places, for that matter. Furthermore, if they did, their criticism would be accompanied by apologism for the perpetrators, laying the ultimate blame, perhaps, at the United States.

By "inferior races," Wretchard asserts the hypocrisy of these organizations in maintaining a double standard by which only the United States can ever be judged to be in the wrong, because other countries are not fit to be held to the same high standard.

7/01/2005 09:51:00 AM  
Blogger Nathan said...

As you mentioned, of course, "inferior races" is also in this case an assessment of the demonstrable collective ignorance of these organizations. As used, it applies to all of those countries and peoples which are clearly not held to the same standard used by the human rights organizations against the United States-- because the human rights organizations, not Wretchard, view these as "inferior," of whom nothing better can be expected.

7/01/2005 09:55:00 AM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Idiots who accuse Wretchard of racism are not after political effect only; there's truth in them, and it's pretty simple: Wretchard comments on Political Idiocy, political idiots believe in identity politics. Ipso-facto, target idiocy = target "diversity" = racism.

7/01/2005 12:13:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

BYW, that was a tight, very subtly-reasoned post, Wrethcard. Oh, if only our DC Titans could follow the reasoning.

7/01/2005 12:17:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...


I think you are giving idiots too much credit, especially the idiot who called Wretchard a racist bastard.

He's just a plain vanilla simpleton.

7/01/2005 12:32:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

re: F102s.

aka "strapping on a jet engine." By the time they were no longer in service, half of the 800+ built had been lost, mostly to in-air malfunctions (aka falling-out-of-the-sky, taking many pilots' lives). And that reputation was well established prior to GWBs service. As well as it being common knowlege that Air Force crew loss ratios far exceed any other service.

n.b. no other reserve service has had more of its skilled people called up than those w/ pilots, which either makes GWB one or more of a patriot, an emulating-son-of-his-pilot-father, or not-so-bright.

I agree with Wretchard, we should have put an end to the Clinton use of the others to do the necessarily ugly acts required. I'd argue that if we had acted directly (in the 90s) 9-11 would not have happened (hiding behind others is one of the stated reasons Osama believed we are corrupt and weak).

7/01/2005 12:48:00 PM  
Blogger buddy larsen said...

Probably so, Old Dad.

7/01/2005 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

A hole in my head I got me.
To perform a frontal lobotomy.

7/01/2005 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

I think I am therefore I are.

7/01/2005 04:38:00 PM  
Blogger Doug said...

Ipso facto, calypso facto,
they all deserve are support.

7/01/2005 04:43:00 PM  
Blogger ledger said...

RWE's comments on the SR-71 brought back memories. When I was a child I did see an active SR-71 up close at Wright Patterson AFB (the aircraft was the short version so it may have another designation). The Curator, some Col. or light General said the ship was just flown in. He invited my father and I to see it in the hanger (My dad and his buddies go Wright Pat AFB for reunions and such frequently - and may have been on friendly terms with this curator). We had to walk a long way to a hanger. I remember looking at the landing gear compartment and seeing an impressive amount of stainless steel braided hoses with anodized couplings (most aircraft tubing is bent alloy tubing like some automotive brake line tubing but bigger. The black paint was warn almost down to the titanium metal. The aircraft was leaking fuel and a little hydraulic fluid. Curator explained the aircraft "grows" 2 inches at cruse speed because of the external air friction (hence when it cools some of joints in the fuel compartments leak - but it's heavy jet fuel that does burn easily. He gave the basic facts of the airplane: flight ceiling and speed of the machine. And, said the pilots wore pressurized suits resembling space suits. He also said the particular aircraft was being retired because it was so difficult to find parts to repair it. It was a very impressive aircraft.

From what I understand the SR-71 (and its cousins) were extremely helpful in gathering up to-date reconnaissance information. They could go almost anywhere any time and photograph areas where satellites could not. They were a huge asset. I hope their replacement is equally as effective.

Returning to the subject. Wretchard does try to express his frustration with the Clinton Legacy of Political Correctness reguarding the rendering subjects for intense interrogations. I have seen much discussion on other threads about it - the practice is good - the practice is bad - maybe we should try to use the "truth drug" a combination of barbiturates and amphetamines to produce a twilight dream state (most say it's not reliable). So, it's an unsolved subject. Unfortunately, the thread gets side-tracked by William Knight and his personal attacks on certain members of the Club ("...majority of Americans are not jack-booted little proto-fascists like you... Bush has zero credibility... It's so cute to watch the right-wing contortionist rhetoric as you... You can talk about Bill Clinton's El Camino all you want, along with all the other little rhetorical bullshit and strawmen that you right-wingers love... Your son may be confident in George Bush's leadership, but unfortunately your son's opinion doesn't represent the total pool of young people eligible for military service..."). And then iotm's tirade, "Seig Heil Fuhror Wretchard!
Racist piece of shit."

I am afraid this thread has been thoroughly derailed. In fact, I think these two have been visiting the DU, MoveOn, and Liberal Larry's 'Lessons for Liberal Bloggers' and take them much too seriously. And Frankly, the "Bush=Hitler" line is growing old. Here is the contents of the latter:

[Liberal Larry]

I loathe the term "blogosphere". It's too cold and impersonal. I prefer to think of this thing of ours as an "electronic village"... Since it takes a village to raise a child, we must act as a community to nurture and protect all the newly hatched liberal bloggers from the harsh realities of this right-wing dominated blogosphere... I will provide a valuable resource, an internet safe-zone where progressives can find the tools they need to defeat any ignorant repugs who creep into their blogs and spam their comment boards with snide remarks.

Lesson #1: The Hitler Mustache
Being a liberal blogger requires not only the regular inhalation of vast amounts of household cleansers, but strict diligence in constantly reminding the mindless sheeple of the insidious evil of the Bush junta. As a rule, it's good practice to compare Bush to Hitler at least once a week. But if you're like me, you have little patience for dimwitted repugs who refuse to acknowledge the obvious. Even adding "itler" to the end of his name fails to convince them. Often, they'll actually demand you present "facts" to back up your claims - a typical right-wing tactic to lower the debate to their level. That's why it's important to arm yourself against the infuriating ignorance of your average conservative blog troll... One of the most powerful weapons in a liberal blogger's arsenal is the dreaded Hitler mustache. When scrawled upon the visage of a politcal adversary, it surpasses even the devil horns and goatee as a means of transforming him into Satan incarnate. Take the late, great George Gobel, for instance. By looking at him, one would never imagine that this mild-mannered, soft-spoken comedian was personally responsible for the systematic extermination of over six million innocents. But give him a little Hitler mustache, and voila! I'll be a dirty bird if Lonesome George isn't Der Fuhrer himself! Add a swastika armband and superimpose him on a Nazi flag, and even the staunchest conservative will be unable to deny the truth: Lonsumfuhrer George Göbels was a Nazi Stooge. The beauty of the whole thing is that there's absolutely no way to respond to it. What are they going to say? "He's NOT Hitler"? Well I'm sorry, cowboy, but I have photographic evidence right here that says he IS.

Still, conservatives are as predictable as they are ignorant, and will typically claim that the photos are fakes - as if authenticity has anything to do with accuracy. That's why it's always good to throw them a bone and provide a series of between the subject and Hitler. For instance, George Gobel was a patriot, and Hitler wrapped himself in patriotism in order to crush dissent. Hitler invaded Poland, and Gobel invaded The Hollywood Squares. George Gobel played the banjo, and so did Hitler. The list goes on and on and on.

When presented with such incontrovertible evidence, most cons will give up and crawl off in search of a hate-radio jock to tell them what to think. Still, some will linger, if only to berate you for enlightening them with your wisdom and insight... So that's when I like to bring out the big guns.


[Picture of Bush with Hitler Mustache waving to the Troops]

They can claim that the Hitler photos are doctored, they can even mock your list of comparisons. But no one in their right minds can deny that Bush is indeed Hitler when he's repeatedly photographed performing the Nazi Salute in broad daylight! It's the veritable smoking gun, folks. If the repugs still argue with you after that, you might as well just block their IP address because they're obviously mentally ill and impossible to reason with... go get yourself a copy of Adobe Photoshop and start enlightening these cons to the truth. The important thing is to be creative, be progressive

See: Lessons for Liberal Bloggers

7/02/2005 12:24:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Damn, ledger,
I was enjoying larry's humor right up to blocking the IP address, which reminded me of this disgusting subhuman that uses "Domains by Proxy" to keep from getting killed.
...they actually had a testimonial from this scum with a link.
I cannot think of a single leftist troll that would not be allies with us in the cause of stopping this disgusting dude cold in his tracks, and burning all his stupid books he uses to extort money from people with.

7/02/2005 01:15:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

Update link page
has hate mail links and this:
"Click below to donate and save Toby's life!"

Wish one of our resident Genius's here could come up with a way to put an end to this.

7/02/2005 01:19:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

What about extortion, and demand his identity from the company so the Cops could move in?

7/02/2005 01:23:00 AM  
Blogger Doug said...

"Hostage Taking."

7/02/2005 02:32:00 PM  
Blogger T said...

Wow wretchard posts something racist, and I get homophobic responses from annoy mouse.

Typical right wing bigotry I guess.

Doug, human rights aren't a matter of majority opinion. If I could convince 70% of the world that you Doug should be executed, would it therefore be just for you me to execute you?

Typical lack of understanding of basic ethics and morality from conservatives.

Wretchard, you lament the idea of not calling "our enemies, enemies" and then complain that the US has lost some of it's cold war totalitarianism, then claim this is how you spread democracy? Thanks for making my point ever the more valid by expressing your point in clearly contradictory terms.

Furthermore what enemies? All enemies of the US are manufactured by the US. The Taliban was trying to become a US client state when the US decided to make them an "enemy". Al Qa'ida was manufactured by the US, not only in their creation of the Afghani Mujahadeen but also in their foreign policy of putting american bases in Saudi Arabia, bombing and starving Iraqis, support of Israel, etc.

All of those things are excesses of American power. They are not the enemies of such power, but that power overgrowing the acceptable limits of those with a vested interest in that power.

America's "enemies" are it's own creatures. It's natural to be hesitant to label something an enemy when it's an extension of yourself.

7/04/2005 09:22:00 AM  
Blogger Jack said...

Now stick that and similar sentiment on a 24/7 radio/tv loop to go along with Al Gore's new station.

7/05/2005 03:02:00 PM  

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